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Old October 13th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #4421
mcarling
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The last days, the widening of another part of A3 near Würzburg (Randersacker - Biebelried) was finished.
From the B13 to the A7?


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And the first section of the "reconstruction" of A4 in Hesse was opened. This reconstruction includes adding of shoulders, realignment of some sections and adding of additional 3rd uphill lanes (more than 60% of each direction will get this 3rd lane, so it's more like a 5-6 lane widening of this Autobahn). In fact, the 'reconstruction' of this new section somehow was a true 6 lane widening but payed from funds for reconstructions and not for widenings...
That sounds good, but I would prefer to see the completion of the A4 between Kreuztal and Kirchheim. Extending the A4 from Kreuztal to the A49 at Neuental would be a good start.
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Old October 13th, 2012, 06:37 PM   #4422
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From the B13 to the A7?
Si!

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That sounds good, but I would prefer to see the completion of the A4 between Kreuztal and Kirchheim. Extending the A4 from Kreuztal to the A49 at Neuental would be a good start.
This section nobody needs, and fortunately isn't planned at all. At least at the moment. They'd rather upgrade A5 Hattenbach - Gambach and A45 Gambach - Olpe to 6 lanes (very urgent already today), and finish A480 north of Gießen between A5 and A45.
The existing A4 in Hesse still is the old Reichsautobahn from before WWII (except the now reconstructed section) and has to carry all the traffic between eastern/northeastern Germany and Frankfurt/southwestern Germany. By far much larger traffic volumes than that new to be built section to Olpe would ever see.
Hesse should also shelve the plans for A44 Kassel - Eisenach and use all the money for finishing the rest of A4 between Kirchheim and Eisenach, and upgrading A5 Hattenbach-Gambach and A5 Darmstadt-Heidelberg to 6 lanes as well as A5 Gambach-Frankfurt, A3 Mönchhof-Frankfurter Kreuz and A3 Offenbach-Hanau to 8 lanes. In sum those projects would cost much less and have much more value to the public.

Last edited by Rohne; October 13th, 2012 at 06:45 PM.
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Old October 13th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #4423
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This section nobody needs, and fortunately isn't planned at all. At least at the moment. They'd rather upgrade A5 Hattenbach - Gambach and A45 Gambach - Olpe to 6 lanes (very urgent already today), and finish A480 north of Gießen between A5 and A45.
Completing the A4 between Kreuztal and Kirchheim would relieve the load on the A5 and A45, while providing a shorter route to many drivers, with economic, environmental, safety, and quality of life benefits. I agree that completing the A480 is a good idea. Exactly the same logic holds for the A4, but on a larger scale.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 12:42 AM   #4424
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I can't think of any autobahn where the slowest speed on the inside lane is moving at 160, unless of course it was night time or early Sunday morning.
A92 behind Landshut (to Deggendorf) would be an example for a 2x2 motorway with traffic moving very fast on the left lane.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 01:29 AM   #4425
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Left lane is not inside lane.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 09:41 AM   #4426
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Left lane is not inside lane.
It is in right hand driving countries.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 12:07 PM   #4427
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Completing the A4 between Kreuztal and Kirchheim would relieve the load on the A5 and A45, while providing a shorter route to many drivers, with economic, environmental, safety, and quality of life benefits. I agree that completing the A480 is a good idea. Exactly the same logic holds for the A4, but on a larger scale.
The effect would be marginal, the need for an urgent widening of A5 and A45 would not be less. It's not the traffic to/from Rhine/Ruhr that overfills Hesse's Autobahnen but the traffic to/from Frankfurt.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #4428
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It is in right hand driving countries.
The inside lane is not the lane on the physical inside of the road. It is rather inside in terms of traffic flow. It is the lane in which all slip road merge and from which all slip roads diverge. It is a rather ambiguous term admittedly and the German translation Hauptfahrstreifen is distinctly more precise.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 12:54 PM   #4429
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The effect would be marginal, the need for an urgent widening of A5 and A45 would not be less. It's not the traffic to/from Rhine/Ruhr that overfills Hesse's Autobahnen but the traffic to/from Frankfurt.
If the traffic to/from Rhine/Ruhr doesn't overfill Hesse's Autobahnen, then why complete the A480? Also, wouldn't the A5 between Gambach and Frankfurt need a fifth lane in each direction if the A4 and A45 need three lanes in each direction and the traffic is overwhelmingly flowing to/from Frankfurt? Something doesn't seem to quite add up.

One way to relieve the traffic through Frankfurt would be to extend the A48 to the B49 at Wetzlar.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #4430
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It is a rather ambiguous term admittedly and the German translation Hauptfahrstreifen is distinctly more precise.
Inside lane/outside lane are terribly ambiguous and I therefore refuse to use the terms. I prefer slow lane/fast lane.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #4431
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Inside lane/outside lane are terribly ambiguous and I therefore refuse to use the terms. I prefer slow lane/fast lane.
That's even worse, and not applicable in Europe. There are no slow or fast lanes here. You stick to the inside, or lane 1 if you wish, unless overtaking.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 01:22 PM   #4432
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It is the lane in which all slip road merge and from which all slip roads diverge.
Small interjection: Not all merges/divergences are situated on the righthand lane in Germany.

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unless overtaking.
Which technically on any reasonably filled road can be defined as "driving at least 20 km/h faster than the back-to-back traffic on the lane to your right".
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Old October 14th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #4433
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If it's busy, than it can be. But when that back-to-back traffic is behind you, if you have managed to pass it at any speed, then it`s time to move back to lane 1 if there is no one left to overtake, and it becomes apparent that you can maintain your speed on the inside lane (or lane 1) for at least a few minutes and/or you are not preventing vehicles behind you from overtaking you. It`s called lane discipline.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 01:35 PM   #4434
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Small interjection: Not all merges/divergences are situated on the righthand lane in Germany.

I can't think of any exit-lefts or merger-lefts in Germany. Motorways changes its numbers here and there, and you may have to exit to stay on the same motorway number, but traffic flow remains.

Examples: A3 turns into A2 at Oberhausen.
A3 turns in to A9 at Nürnberg.

In both cases, traffic will need to exit (right) to stay on A3.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #4435
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That's even worse, and not applicable in Europe.
You have an interesting opinion. I've in Europe for decades and it seems perfectly applicable to me.

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There are no slow or fast lanes here. You stick to the inside, or lane 1 if you wish, unless overtaking.
Different jurisdictions define "lane 1" differently, so that's no good either.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #4436
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You have an interesting opinion. I've in Europe for decades and it seems perfectly applicable to me.


Different jurisdictions define "lane 1" differently, so that's no good either.
Where are you from? Terms like that makes more sense in the USA. Not in Europe, where keeping right on the continent, and keeping left in the UK and Ireland is the norm.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #4437
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If the traffic to/from Rhine/Ruhr doesn't overfill Hesse's Autobahnen, then why complete the A480? Also, wouldn't the A5 between Gambach and Frankfurt need a fifth lane in each direction if the A4 and A45 need three lanes in each direction and the traffic is overwhelmingly flowing to/from Frankfurt? Something doesn't seem to quite add up.

One way to relieve the traffic through Frankfurt would be to extend the A48 to the B49 at Wetzlar.
A5 Gambach - Friedberg needs 8 lanes, already today. That's enough for the ~100000 vehicles counted there nowadays (between Friedberg and Frankfurt traffic volumes are even higher and 8 lanes wouldn't solve all problems, but that's a different story). A5 and A45 north of Gambach carry ~50000 - 70000 vehicles a day each (A45 south of Gambach ~30000). Now you can do the maths on your own.
A480 would be appropriate as it's rather short and doesn't cost too much. A4 would be way too expensive, has very limited value and wouldn't solve any traffic problems which occur an A5 and A45. Cars travelling this relation already have different alternatives they can use (A44 Kassel - Dortmund, A5/A45 Hattenbach-Olpe, A5/B49 Hattenbach-Limburg - B49 Limburg-Wetzlar is currently being upgraded to Autobahn standard, but that's also no reliever for traffic problems around Frankfurt).
And since traffic funds in Germany are very limited at current times, the priorities should be clear.

Last edited by Rohne; October 14th, 2012 at 03:05 PM.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 02:53 PM   #4438
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Where are you from? Terms like that makes more sense in the USA. Not in Europe, where keeping right on the continent, and keeping left in the UK and Ireland is the norm.
That is exactly the reason why one could speak of fast and slow lanes. The commandment to stick to the inside lane unless overtaking and the ban on overtaking on the inside sorts traffic from slow to fast on a carriageway.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 03:09 PM   #4439
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You've got a point I suppose. Although any lane is just as fast when not overtaking or being overtaken. I think we need to make up new words to describe lanes.
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Old October 14th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #4440
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A5 Gambach - Friedberg needs 8 lanes, already today. That's enough for the ~100000 vehicles counted there nowadays (between Friedberg and Frankfurt traffic volumes are even higher and 8 lanes wouldn't solve all problems, but that's a different story). A5 and A45 north of Gambach carry ~50000 - 70000 vehicles a day each (A45 south of Gambach ~30000). Now you can do the maths on your own.
If those numbers are right and if the mix of local versus long-distance traffic is similar on each of these roads (which might not be the case), then there would be virtually no traffic on the A480.

I agree that completing the A480 would be much less expensive than the completing the A4.

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B49 Limburg-Wetzlar is currently being upgraded to Autobahn standard, but that's also no reliever for traffic problems around Frankfurt).
I disagree with your prediction that upgrading the B49 to autobahn standard will not relieve traffic around Frankfurt. Some east-west traffic will choose the new autobahn which would otherwise have driven via Frankfurt. For example, Luxembourg - Wroclaw traffic.
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