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Old March 23rd, 2013, 06:04 AM   #4641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alqaszar View Post
Some Germans also think that they have right-of-way when they use the left lane with high speeds. In a situation where the right lane is densely used by trucks etc. (avg. speed around 90 km/h in reality), it is of course legal to overtake with at least 110 km/h.
Any driver who changes lane has to give right of way to anyone already there, if someone has to slam their brakes because you pull out in front of them you are in the wrong!
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So relatively slow car can use the left lane for many kilometers, given the high density of truck traffic on some stretches of the Autobahn.
Only for an overtake, if you aren't overtaking at that moment you need to bugger off to the right, I wish they doubled the fines for not keeping to the right!
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Some drivers get impatient in such cases, since they think it is their right to drive at high speeds. This lack of intelligence is often very visible to the outside, because it correlates with the brand of the automobile; Audi, BMW, sometimes Mercedes, often enough Volkswagens (company cars!) and of course douchemobiles like Porsche etc.
So people driving luxury cars are less intelligent, way to generalise...

How about I turn it around, the ones who don't respect the right of way or drive extremely slow are always small eco tin cans ( usually the tax free ones) or mini-mpv's.

Anyhow... A lot of people do far higher speeds than 160, if I drive 160 on cruise control when going to Poland, I get people overtaking me at easily 50 km/h faster. And Sometimes you're in a train of nice quick driving cars going 180-220 km/h, ironically, mostly BMW's/Audi's but Saloon/Estate cars in general... I prefer nippy drivers than old granps in his Suzuki Alto or Opel Agila venturing out from his town.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 04:34 PM   #4642
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Sorry guys that I interrupt your discussion, but I have a question concerning a completely different topic.

Is it a good idea to try out the following route on next friday? How dangerous is B12 really? Might there be congestions?
A96 - A99 - A94 - B12 - A8 Wels

Alternatively I'd take A92, A3 and A8 as usual.

Thanks for your advices!
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 05:00 PM   #4643
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I drove on A94 and B12 until Burghausen. It was ok, there were trucks too, and not many chances of overtaking on B12.
Some pictures here http://www.flickr.com/photos/2710833...th/7135133815/

I also want to drive from Ingolstadt to Venice on Friday, hopefully it won't be very crowded...
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Old March 25th, 2013, 02:20 PM   #4644
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How dangerous is B12 really? Might there be congestions?
Usually no real congestions but you'll be driving at 80 behind a truck most of the time. This is tempting a lot of car drivers to overtake at places where they shouldn't and possibly get into confict with the equally dense opposing traffic. This made it one of the deadliest roads in Germany (350 casualties in 20 years).
Just relax and stay behind your truck. It doesn't make much sense to overtake anyway as you'll soon be stuck behind the next truck. You won't gain any significant time.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 02:53 PM   #4645
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Figures are reversed. 70% drive faster than 150 and 30% slower. So what I wrote is true and what you wrote is not.
München - Garmisch is a bit untypical for Germany though. When you look at it on a map you see that it basically ends and so there's no through traffic (which is what most trucks in Germany are) so I believe you straight away that there were hardly any trucks. The only reason for this motorway was to build a nice race track for the rich people living in the southern suburbs of München.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 01:06 PM   #4646
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München - Garmisch is a bit untypical for Germany though. When you look at it on a map you see that it basically ends and so there's no through traffic (which is what most trucks in Germany are) so I believe you straight away that there were hardly any trucks. The only reason for this motorway was to build a nice race track for the rich people living in the southern suburbs of München.
I disagree. They could extend it into Austria.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #4647
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I disagree. They could extend it into Austria.
But they're not.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #4648
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And probably they never will.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 08:15 PM   #4649
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And probably they never will.
The future lasts a long time. I believe that tunnel boring costs will continue to fall and that eventually (perhaps 20-30 years from now), the A95 might be extended to intersect with the Austrian A12. Such a highway might someday extend (mostly underground) all the way to Milan.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #4650
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There is already a link between Munich and Innsbruck. Why upset all the locals and pay a lot of money for another one? Wouldn't it be more interesting to extend the A7 into Austria via Reutte and Fernpass? That way there will be a link straight from Stuttgart and Würzburg, relieving a lot of traffic from the Munich approaches, and the never ending bottleneck and congestions due to blockabfertigung and Fernpass queues will finally be cleared. Also the Arlberg tunnels and the Bregenz situation might change a little.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #4651
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I don't think a tunnel between Garmisch and Telfs would upset the locals very much. It might make some of them very happy.

Anyway, I was not opining on which possible future north-south tunnel would be best. Rather, I was opining that tunnel boring costs will continue to decline and that, eventually, there will be more north-south tunnels under the Alps. Therefore, I would not be too quick to forever rule out any particular possible route, for example, an extension of the A95.

While it's not something I expect, I even would not rule out the possibility that Germany and Italy might someday decide to pay for a tunnel (perhaps for safety reasons limited to future fully automated self-driving cars) under Austria or Switzerland without any exits in Austria or Switzerland. The future lasts a long time.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 10:15 PM   #4652
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Building a full alpine bypass, with no service to A or CH, would be a technical hassle with few advantages...

And the Milan to Munich route is already there, pretty straight (and probably straighter than via A95), via Bregenz. You just need to build a damn 3 km link between A14 (A) and A13 (CH)... whose absence is still a mistery to me.

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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
There is already a link between Munich and Innsbruck. Why upset all the locals and pay a lot of money for another one? Wouldn't it be more interesting to extend the A7 into Austria via Reutte and Fernpass? That way there will be a link straight from Stuttgart and Würzburg, relieving a lot of traffic from the Munich approaches, and the never ending bottleneck and congestions due to blockabfertigung and Fernpass queues will finally be cleared. Also the Arlberg tunnels and the Bregenz situation might change a little.
Yep, the A7 link would be way more interesting. Even without a full highway, the new Fernpass road is pretty nice, but the toughest part is still there.

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to pay for a tunnel (perhaps for safety reasons limited to future fully automated self-driving cars)
We already got them, they're called trains
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Old March 26th, 2013, 10:46 PM   #4653
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A lot of Munich - Milan freight traffic use Brenner to avoid customs clearance in Switzerland. I know, because I'm one of them even in a van. Calais - Italy either via Brenner or Mont Blanc, if I'm empty I'll get back via A2 in Switzerland.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #4654
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Yep, but you'll agree that to solve this issue a quick war to gain control of Swiss borders is way cheaper than building a new highway tunnel...
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Old March 26th, 2013, 11:35 PM   #4655
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Yep, but you'll agree that to solve this issue a quick war to gain control of Swiss borders is way cheaper than building a new highway tunnel...
I would not agree. The war against Iraq cost more than $1,000,000,000,000.
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Old March 27th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #4656
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Originally Posted by kiat7272 View Post
is there any speed limits in Autobahn?
because I heard it has no speed limits...
About fifty percent of the German Autobahns are limited. The rest is unlimited ("Richtgeschwindigkeit" or "advised speed limit" 130km/h).
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Old March 27th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #4657
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Are there long-term plans to further extend the A46? If so, to where? Joining the A44 at Burghasungen seems logical, but it's only a guess. Are there any plans to join the two separate A46 sections?
There were plans in the 1970s to extend the A46 as a motorway. There are still plans, but not as an Autobahn. The section AS Bestwig to AS Nuttlar is the last A46 part.

The next section from the A46 end near Nuttlar to the B480 north of Brilon (see OSM) is planned with urgent demand as B7n with only one carriageway (I guess it will get 3 lanes). The plan-approval procedure ("Planfeststellungsverfahren") has not yet started. So there is no chance to start construction until 2020.

The next 2 sections are from Brilon to Alme (including Alme bypass) and from Alme to Wünnenberg. Both sections are only further demand.

The following step is the Wünnenberg bypass (see OSM). It is planned to start construction in 2013. The bypass will be equipped with 3 lanes. The B480 to the interchange with A33 and A44 is already grade-separated.

The planned B7n and B480 projects are within the old A46 corridor until south of Wünnenberg. The B480 bypasses Wünnenberg in the west. The A46 was planned as an eastern bypass of Wünnenberg, crossing the A44, going ahead to Beverungen and Uslar, crossing the A7 near Nörten-Hardenberg, going to Bad Lauterberg and ending at the A38 west of Nordhausen. The planned B243 construction is within the old A46 corridor from the border between Lower Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt to the A38.

You can see all old and current Autobahn plans within this map: http://autobahnatlas-online.de.

Until 2015 or 2016 our government is disposing a new Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan for the years 2015 to 2030. I suspect, that several projects will be canceled .
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Old March 27th, 2013, 06:12 PM   #4658
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Until 2015 or 2016 our government is disposing a new Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan for the years 2015 to 2030. I suspect, that several projects will be canceled .
Is it possible to add new projects to the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015-2030 in a later stage?

If I understand correctly, the states can submit their wish list until late 2013, however, there are currently several states with a government coalition that is not too fond of new motorways. Which means some of them will not submit major anticipated projects, for example I've read Schleswig-Holstein does not want to extend A20 west of A7.

Does this mean this project has no chance until after 2030 because the current coalition doesn't support the project?

That said, I'm a bit surprised by the many widening plans submitted by Baden-Württemberg, a state with a red-green government. They basically want to widen nearly all their Autobahnen to at least six lanes except for the southern and northern parts of A81.
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Old March 27th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #4659
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Is it possible to add new projects to the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015-2030 in a later stage?
The current BVWP 2003 has 3 stages:
- VB (Urgent demand)
- WB* (Further demand with planning privilege)
- WB (Futher demand without planning privilege)

The new BVWP 2015 will have 4 stages:
- VB+ (Urgent demand plus - only for Autobahn bootlenecks with high benefit-cost rate (NKV) and without environment risk)
- VB
- WB* (I guess, that we will have it, but there is no official info about it)
- WB

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If I understand correctly, the states can submit their wish list until late 2013, however, there are currently several states with a government coalition that is not too fond of new motorways.
The states must submit their wish list until September 2013.
But there is also a election in September, so there is a possiblity, that the new Federal Government (Bundesregierung) will change all formerly plans...

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Which means some of them will not submit major anticipated projects, for example I've read Schleswig-Holstein does not want to extend A20 west of A7.
Does this mean this project has no chance until after 2030 because the current coalition doesn't support the project?
No. The states make only wish lists. The final decision will be made by the Federal Government about 3 years later (after several analysis and discussions - also a internet discussion is planned ).

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That said, I'm a bit surprised by the many widening plans submitted by Baden-Württemberg, a state with a red-green government. They basically want to widen nearly all their Autobahnen to at least six lanes except for the southern and northern parts of A81.
BaWü does not have a red-green, they even have a green-red government ! They are focussing on maintenance projects and on arterial roads - just as the Federal Government plan (70% of the money for Autobahn and Autobahn-like projects; only 30% for bypasses and other projects; The BVWP 2003 had a rate with 50% for both). The BaWü problem is, that the current green-red government has its own definition for arterial roads .


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Old March 28th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #4660
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A44 Kassel - Eisenach

The Federal Administrative Court dismissed an action by BUND (nature conservation organization) against a A44 plan-approval order today, see press release BVerwG .

It concerns the 7.2km long section from AS Waldkappel to Hoheneiche (see OSM). The next 5.4km section from Hoheneiche to AS Sontra-Nord is also challenged by BUND .

About 19km of the A44 Kassel - Eisenach (66km) are currently under construction, 4.3km near Hessisch Lichtenau are in service since 2005.

The plan-approval order for the section from AS Sontra-Ulfen to AD Wommen (A4) was passed in February 2013. The plan-approval procedures for the last two sections (AD Kassel-Ost to AS Helsa-Ost and AS Sontra-Nord to AS Sontra-Ulfen) are still in progress.

It is also planned to widen the A7 to 4 lanes in each direction from AD Kassel-Ost to AD Kassel-Süd where the A44 branches to Dortmund/Ruhr. Preliminary works are in progress.

Last edited by MichiH; March 30th, 2013 at 05:13 PM.
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