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Old July 27th, 2013, 08:12 PM   #5261
ChrisZwolle
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The big progess in the 1960th and 1970th means that most of that buildings must be replaced now!
I wonder how much longer they could've been used if they had proper maintenance. It's not normal that a bridge has to be demolished after less 40 - 50 years of service. Maybe some, but not on the current scale where several dozen bridges are beyond repair. The A7 bridge at Marktbreit is only 32 years old and is currently being demolished. Some problems appear to be very acute, like the immediate banning of trucks on A1-Leverkusen and A7-Rendsburg recently, or lane closures because of load stress.

The Netherlands has many bridges from the 1960s and 1970s across rivers and none of them needed replacement. Renovation, yes, but demolition, no.

It's not only large valley or river viaducts. The problem is also within interchanges, such as Kreuz Leverkusen. The bridges in Kreuz Hannover-Ost and Kreuz Oberhausen were recently replaced. The widening of A3 Frankfurt - Würzburg spared them from emergency closures, because they are replaced anyway.

By the way I paid about € 140 in fuel taxes in Germany last month. Perhaps this will help
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Old July 27th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #5262
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I wonder how much longer they could've been used if they had proper maintenance.
I usually read that the bridges and viaducts were designed to be keep up 100 years. But the traffic volumes - especially the truck volumes - have increased too fast.

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The widening of A3 Frankfurt - Würzburg spared them from emergency closures, because they are replaced anyway.
The "Mainbrücke Bettingen" (completed in 2001), "Mainbrücke Dettelbach" (2003) and "Haseltalbrücke" (2012) were rebuild before the sections in front and behind are widened. All sections around that buildings are still not built.

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By the way I paid about € 140 in fuel taxes in Germany last month. Perhaps this will help
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:09 AM   #5263
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By the way I paid about € 140 in fuel taxes in Germany last month. Perhaps this will help
Mr. Schäuble will be grateful for that, he needs every penny

Seriously, a toll charge won't help because only 5% of all vehicles are foreigners. And we are already paying billions of fuel taxes which are not used for road maintenance but to pay people's pensions.

I think that motorway building has become so difficult because of different ideologies. The Greens who are in charge in many state governments and have been in the Federal government until 2005, have an ideology that is against motorways but in favour of railroads and bicycles. Plus the increasing NIMBYism everywhere, plus lack of money, that makes road construction or widening projects so difficult.

Talking of bridges from the 1970s, a report in the local newspaper stated that the Rendsburg bridge had been badly constructed from the start.

22 km of traffic jam northbound and 15 km southbound. Admittedly, on one of the busiest days of the year, but still ...

Did I mention that the Rendsburg tunnel had to be fully closed today due to a truck crash

Did I mention that the B76 between Schleswig and Eckernförde is closed due to asphalt renovation? Detour through small villages until Aug 15...

Don't ask how I made it to Lübeck today
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:25 AM   #5264
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The A93 has 80 km/h limit after Regensburg and almost until Dreieck Holledau. That's because of the damages the high temperatures from the last weeks did and are still doing. Such a boring drive at that speed. Had I known it's that much limited, I would have sticked to the B16, where I mostly drove 100-120 until intersection with B299. Although the drive back at night was more comfortable on the motorway.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:31 AM   #5265
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Seriously, a toll charge won't help because only 5% of all vehicles are foreigners. And we are already paying billions of fuel taxes which are not used for road maintenance but to pay people's pensions.
That's right. But a toll has one advantage compared to taxes: they are earmarked ("zweckgebunden"). Tolls must be used for the infrastructure. Taxes are for the general pool and can be used for everything. The current government could arrange that "all traffic taxes" have to be used for the traffic but the next government can easily cancel that agreement.

It is totally impossible to launch a car toll system w/o stressing the locals. The incoming of the foreign cars is less than the costs for a new toll collection system. And remember: foreign trucks do already pay for using German Autobahns!
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:34 AM   #5266
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Had I known it's that much limited
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=5107
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:38 AM   #5267
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But a toll has one advantage compared to taxes: they are earmarked ("zweckgebunden"). Tolls must be used for the infrastructure. Taxes are for the general pool and can be used for everything. The current government could arrange that "all traffic taxes" have to be used for the traffic but the next government can easily cancel that agreement.
In theory, a rule that transport taxes must be spent only on transport could be written into Germany's constitution (Grundgesetz für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland), but I don't believe there is sufficient political support (2/3 vote) for that.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:47 AM   #5268
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I wonder how much longer they could've been used if they had proper maintenance. It's not normal that a bridge has to be demolished after less 40 - 50 years of service.
I'm speculating, but it seems that some of these would need to be replaced anyway either because more lanes are needed or because, in the case of overpasses, they need to span more lanes. For example, in CZ, the D1 widening project involves the replacement of several overpasses which would have had varying long-term prospects if the D1 would not have needed to be widened. 40-50 years may be sufficient time for traffic to exceed original estimates.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:22 AM   #5269
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That's right. But a toll has one advantage compared to taxes: they are earmarked ("zweckgebunden"). Tolls must be used for the infrastructure.
What do you mean by that? Does such a law in Germany exist (about toll that actually don't exist)?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:34 AM   #5270
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What do you mean by that? Does such a law in Germany exist (about toll that actually don't exist)?
Of course toll exists. Heavy freight traffic have been charged tolls on motorways for years now...
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #5271
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Of course toll exists. Heavy freight traffic have been charged tolls on motorways for years now...
Yes, I know it. I did not write that toll does not exist in Germany, but that the toll we're talking about (the toll for cars) does not exist.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #5272
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Yes, I know it. I did not write that toll does not exist in Germany, but that the toll we're talking about (the toll for cars) does not exist.
It's the same for truck and car toll.

The situation for the truck toll is described on the German wikipedia: "Der Bundestag entschied mit der Verabschiedung seines Haushaltes 2011 am 26. November 2010, dass beginnend mit dem Haushaltsjahr 2011, dieses verbleibende Aufkommen ausschließlich zur Finanzierung der Bundesfernstraßen zu verwenden ist (Schaffung eines Finanzierungskreislaufs Straße). Er hat dies außerdem im Gesetz zur Änderung mautrechtlicher Vorschriften, das am 15. April 2011 beschlossen wurde, gesetzlich festgelegt."

Translation: "The Bundestag decided with the passing of its 2011 budget plan on 26 December 2010 starting with the budget year 2011 the remaining money to be used exclusively to finance the federal trunk roads (creating a road funding cycle). It has been fixed in the amend toll legislation law which was passed on 15 April 2011."

The next wikipedia sentence describes the result: The traffic budget was increased due to the law modification but the total amount was remained constant .

It is not so easy to modify a law because the (public) discussion is directly about the consequences. But it is very easy to redeploy money from one to another resort during budget discussion which happens always once a year because the discussion is about the resorts which shall get the money!
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Old July 28th, 2013, 06:54 PM   #5273
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OK, I see, thanks.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:47 PM   #5274
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I found two newspaper articles about the traffic infrastructure problems (published today):

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/auto...putt-1.1731950

German roads and railways are broken. Germany let's deteriorate its traffic infrastructure. The bulk of German railways was built in the 19th century. The German Institute for Economic Research (DIW) has estimated that one-fifth of the Autobahn network and 40% of the bridges are in critical condition. 7.2 billion € are needed to repair the traffic network within the next 15 years - 7.2 billion € each year! The suggestions from a commission will be pubilshed on 27th September 2013 - 5 days after the Bundestag election.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/maro...itte-1.1732013

53 billion € are earned by the state annually through road tax, fuel tax, and truck tolls. Actually enough to keep roads in good condition and to extend it. But the problem is: the amount of only 19 billion € flow back into the road, the rest goes into the general budget. And so therefore experts ponder on about how more money let take to finance the infrastructure.

400 million € could be earned by foreign car drivers! 20% of the incoming from truck toll are used by the operating company.

(4.5 billion € were earned by truck toll in 2011)
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:08 PM   #5275
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Well, it is clear that funding and fixing the crumbling infrastructure in Germany is not a problem. Since the elections will likely result in a grand coalition of CDU and SPD I don't see much hurdles tackling the most important issues. The money is there, now only the will.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:09 PM   #5276
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Yes, it is officially called A60 but it is not an Autobahn but a "Kraftfahrstraße" as you can see in the video at 2:35 and 2:39. Whereas the B28 south of Neu-Ulm is signed as an Autobahn.
True. I happen to have a video of the only non-motorway motorway interchange in Germany:

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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:42 AM   #5277
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Does he like impatient Germans, long delays, extremely bad roadsurface in places, ongoing and dragging roadworks etc etc...?
He doesn't like bitchy Austrians, that's for sure.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 03:02 AM   #5278
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Road_UK, seems like you've found a sensitive spot
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Old July 29th, 2013, 06:32 AM   #5279
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Yup.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 10:50 AM   #5280
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High guys, here some pics from our road trip across Germany on our way to Wacken (Schleswig-Holstein):





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