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Old August 4th, 2013, 12:38 PM   #5301
mcarling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
The point is that if the Volvo is right behind you (which was the case if Alqaszar's account is anything to go by...and I'm sure most other drivers have been in a similar situation on the Autobahn since those nuts don't really keep a safe distance) then he is definitely tailgating, it's as simple as that.
No judge will convict anyone of a crime based on "he was right behind me" which, depending on the interpretation of the panicked driver, could have been 1 meter, 10 meters, 100 meters, or just about any other distance within sight range. A judge would want to know the specific distance and would probably want some evidence such as a photo, or video, or the testimony of a police officer in order to convict the Volvo driver of a crime. In the case of the Porsche driver, we have a specific verifiable consequence (death, not just an allegedly panicked driver), a specific cause (the accident), and a specific basis of fault (280 km/h, not something vague like "very very fast" or "right behind me"). In the Porsche case, those are all verifiable facts and form a basis for stating that a crime has been committed. All of that is absent in the Volvo case and there is no basis here on which to prosecute the Volvo driver, let alone convict of a crime. If you have evidence of a specific following distance, then you may have a case.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 12:45 PM   #5302
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Nervously swerving, flashing his headlights... You can bet a pair of monkeys bullocks that he was right up his arse. Either way, the author of the story was clearly intimidated, otherwise he wouldn't have posted his story on here. And intimidating, threatening behaviour on the roads is illegal.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #5303
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Guys, this discussion does not lead anywhere.

The user Mcarling is obvioulsly defending the Volvo driver all the time, which makes it obvious that he drives just the same.

Apparently he is not aware of the fact (or denies to accept) that this behaviour is outright crime (Nötigung) and can lead to prison.

A general speed limit would solve many of the problems we have on German motorways. The named Porsche accident would not have happened (assumed the Porsche driver sticks to speed limits at all), and even many traffic jams could be reduced. There has been done enough research to prove that. Still, I am myself not in favour of a general speed limit. Why not, if the advantages are so obvious? Well it is maybe just the fact, that I want to be allowed to go 150 or 180 if I think it is required (if I want to come home after a long drive, e.g.) So it is mainly pure egoism.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #5304
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The only thing I'd like to contribute:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alqaszar View Post
I don't know, but a "hard" speed limit of 130 km/h would be best also for German autobahns.
(...)
Maybe such a**holes wouldn't be stopped by a speed limit, but I still would feel safer.
Then what's the point of the speed limit if it doesn't stop the lunatics? Most people know how they should drive on the German Autobahn, why spoil that because of a couple of retards that wont be stopped by the new speed limit anyway?
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Old August 4th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #5305
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It helps isolating them.

I too am not in favour of introducing limits, but it usually happens when people abuse their rights. First rule about safe speeding is to understand others may drive slower than me and it's their right to do so, it's not my right to fly over their heads.

Another option could be to introduce a high general limit, let's say 160 or 180. It's still very fast, but not a lot faster than the rest of traffic. You may still overtake a car doing 130 with the same speed difference between 130 and a truck.

And I'd seriously consider a special license for going over 130. Modern cars have no problem in doing that, but the system cannot rely just on the hope that drivers collected enough experience before going fast.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #5306
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The "Richtgeschwindigkeit" 130 km/h does actually mean a thing, especially if an accident occurs (the Porsche driver will have to deal with that): Driving more than 130, there will always be created a "Mitschuld" (joint responsibilty), even if the fast driver didn't do anything wrong and the other guy actually did. The insurance won't cover the full expenses of the own damage, and there can be legal consequences up to manslaughter -- just because you were doing more than 130 and the other guy pulled in front of you without checking the mirrors.

So, doing more than 130 always happens at own risk. The road code states that overtaking is ok if the speed difference is 20 km/h or more. The right line clogged with trucks (as always), traffic running with around 90 km/h, 110 km/h is legally sufficient (although creating unecessary queues especially in dense traffic -- grandma was tired being caught between the trucks).

Basically, there is no general speed limit in Germany. But doing more than 130, you are at your own risk.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #5307
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I had an encounter today with a BMW driver with M plates. I was doing around 150 km/h on the A95, and was overtaking 2 cars, doing somewhere around 130 I guess. The ******* stuck to my rear and gave light flashes waving his hands. I didn't budge, continued my overtaking without accelerating more, and then moved right.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #5308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Either 1) you should have overtaken at a more reasonable overtaking speed of 150 or 160 km/h or 2) you should have moved in between the two trucks after you saw that you were obstructing traffic or 3) waited until you could see a greater distance behind you. 30 seconds is way too long to be obstructing the overtaking lane. When I'm overtaking, my own rule is to never obstruct a faster vehicle for more than 3-5 seconds.
Traffic is not obstructed, when it is allowed to flow at 130 km/h.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 11:28 AM   #5309
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German drivers are usually polite and used to drive at high speeds and live with high-speed traffic if they don't. I wouldn't find it fair to implement a speed limit just because you may encounter one lunatic a year on Autobahnen. Speed limits do not make bad drivers disappear. Driving in other countries you may also occasionally find someone driving too fast, tailgating and/or weaving.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #5310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
In Germany it's a punishable offence to stick your middle finger up to someone in traffic. Swerving aggressively behind someone, continuously flashing your lights can cause a panic reaction, which is a recipe for a potential accident. It's not my own interpretation, it is in fact the law.
Actually, using your "blinkers" is legal in Germany to indicate that you intend to pass at high speed, using your high beams isn't. But it's a very minor offense that basically is never prosecuted.

From the original description I'd say the Volvo driver was just an idiot. What's the point of blinking and flashing at someone who's passing? Of course, there are those people who stay on the passing lane even though the next truck is like a kilometer ahead thinking they are in the right. Those I usually just pass on the right lane because that has FAR less severe consequences than tailgating.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 11:54 AM   #5311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
Traffic is not obstructed, when it is allowed to flow at 130 km/h.
That would depend on the situation. If the fast car comes from behind and you pull right in front of it then you are an obstruction because the one changing a lane (the slow driver in my example) has to give the right of way to the driver who already is on a lane.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 11:59 AM   #5312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
From the original description I'd say the Volvo driver was just an idiot. What's the point of blinking and flashing at someone who's passing? Of course, there are those people who stay on the passing lane even though the next truck is like a kilometer ahead thinking they are in the right. Those I usually just pass on the right lane because that has FAR less severe consequences than tailgating.
Most of the time, I found it was enough just to close a little up, no blinking, no high beams, not coming too close. That's like making my point clear the polite way.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #5313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
And I'd seriously consider a special license for going over 130. Modern cars have no problem in doing that, but the system cannot rely just on the hope that drivers collected enough experience before going fast.
You actually have to pass a special driver training to legally drive a car (or have your car "opened up") that can do faster than 250 kmh in Germany.

Maybe they should instead do the same thing they do with motorcycles, you have a restriction in motor size for a few years after you make your license to gain "driving experience".
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Old August 5th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #5314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Most of the time, I found it was enough just to close a little up, no blinking, no high beams, not coming too close. That's like making my point clear the polite way.
Yeah, in Germany blinking usually has the exact opposit effect because people then get stubborn and want to show you. I personally often drive 200 kmh and faster when the situation allows and when someone pulls out in front of me, well, unless I have to brake like a maniac to avoid an accident I just shrug. I've had much less highly powered vihicles in my life so I know slower people want to pass too. The best solution is usually to just take the foot off the gas and roll and that slows you down just enough for the slow guy to safely pass and get back on the right lane without freaking out. And seriously, why anyone would want to guy in front of you be scared is beyond me. he'll likely just slow down and make things even longer or (worst case) cause an accident in which you will be involved with near absolute certainty. And boy, THAT'LL slow you down real bad.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 12:12 PM   #5315
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Oh, lane hogging is another topic, it was terrible yesterday, on the A9, with 3 lanes, lane 2 and 3 were full, while the first was many times almost empty. I passed many cars from the 1st lane, they didn't budge, stayed on the 2nd or 3rd after that.

About letting fast cars pass you even though you are on the left lane, I always do that if I can safely go right and then resume my overtaking, but not if I have to brake hard after moving right, I did that a few times and it sucks, you can also get passed by cars you passed seconds ago and get stuck with slow cars. I also refuse to move between trucks, I won't get out of there easily after that. Only if there is enough distance between them that I don't have to slow to much.

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Old August 5th, 2013, 12:18 PM   #5316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
And seriously, why anyone would want to guy in front of you be scared is beyond me. he'll likely just slow down and make things even longer
In my opinion most of the times fast drivers don't actually care about arriving early at destination - unless their dad is in hospital or they have to catch a plane and gf wasted time packing and doing her make up. They do that for the thrill, the adrenaline, feeling superior to the poor city-car guys who are limited to an unimpressive 140 km/h. And scaring the bejisus out of them is part of this - sick - game.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 01:03 PM   #5317
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Oh, lane hogging is another topic, it was terrible yesterday, on the A9, with 3 lanes, lane 2 and 3 were full, while the first was many times almost empty. I passed many cars from the 1st lane, they didn't budge, stayed on the 2nd or 3rd after that.

About letting fast cars pass you even though you are on the left lane, I always do that if I can safely go right and then resume my overtaking, but not if I have to brake hard after moving right, I did that a few times and it sucks, you can also get passed by cars you passed seconds ago and get stuck with slow cars. I also refuse to move between trucks, I won't get out of there easily after that. Only if there is enough distance between them that I don't have to slow to much.
Since I have first hand experience with 45 PS and with 200 PS I always ask myself "What would you do if you were in the other car" and when the guy does exactly what I would do too, were I in his car, how can I possibly be pissed off about him ? I have a strong "live and let live" philosophy.

And, I understand why someone would not go on the right lane for a short moment to let a fast car pass, it happens plenty of times that you are trying to be nice and then the ass you just let by drives next to you and you have to brake like a maniac to avoid the next truck. In my opinion it is the responsibility of the passing car to watch out for the other guy so he does NOT get stuck himself. Fairness is the key word I guess.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #5318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
In my opinion most of the times fast drivers don't actually care about arriving early at destination - unless their dad is in hospital or they have to catch a plane and gf wasted time packing and doing her make up. They do that for the thrill, the adrenaline, feeling superior to the poor city-car guys who are limited to an unimpressive 140 km/h. And scaring the bejisus out of them is part of this - sick - game.
Yeah those are the ones who are 90 centimeters behind you flashing and blinking even though you pass a line of trucks and couldn't make way unless by going UNDER a truck bed. Behaving like that is just plain retarded. Those people have a small ***** and that's their compensation.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #5319
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As I plan to drive through whole Germany on Wednesday ...
How serious is the problem of heat related damages on Autobahns? I was looking at the ADAC map and there are quite some remarks of reduced speed limits because of the heat.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 05:40 PM   #5320
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This is a map in Bavaria.
The stretches with red are limited to 80 km/h. You can drive there without problems, only the limitation is irritating.
So, depending from where you are coming and where you are going, you could eventually plan an alternative more fun route


source: http://www.bayerninfo.de/
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