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Old August 11th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #5361
mcarling
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No, he would not. That's a measure of equivalent effect since almost exclusively only foreigners would be affected by such toll.
Nice try, but that would require showing an equivalent effect. In this case, it would require showing that the set of German citizens is the same as the set of German residents. Obviously, it's not. A similar effect is not good enough. The ECJ has never struck down a case of discrimination based on residency. The nearest you might get is last year's decision about reduced transport costs for students in Austria, which was not based on residency of the students, but on where the parents paid taxes.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:16 PM   #5362
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No, he would not. That's a measure of equivalent effect since almost exclusively only foreigners would be affected by such toll.
You have absolutely wrong ideas about EU-right.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #5363
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You have absolutely wrong ideas about EU-right.
Indeed. The least capable of my students make similar mis-pronouncements about EU law. The students who will someday go on to argue real cases before the ECJ make mistakes on a higher level.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #5364
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Nice try, but that would require showing an equivalent effect. In this case, it would require showing that the set of German citizens is the same as the set of German residents. Obviously, it's not. A similar effect is not good enough. The ECJ has never struck down a case of discrimination based on residency. The nearest you might get is last year's decision about reduced transport costs for students in Austria, which was not based on residency of the students, but on where the parents paid taxes.
Please, tell me where you're teaching EU-law. I'd love to know. It already struck me when you claimed that Art 22 Schengen Borders Code prohibits any sort of speed limit, which is just utter bullshit.

The ECJ never confirmed a discrimination based on residency? Dafuq? What about this one: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/showPdf...=1&cid=6229656

Labour and employment law 101.

This is basically a very similar case to the student tickets in Vienna. Reductions (namely those on the motor vehicle tax) are only granted to those who pay their taxes in Germany, others, who are in a similar situation (both paid the price for the Vignette), don't get to cash in those reductions. Who are those, who don't get to cash in the reduction? Almost exclusively foreigners. It doesn't matter where the German residents are from, but where the indirectly discriminated test sample is from.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #5365
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You have absolutely wrong ideas about EU-right.
EU right
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Old August 12th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #5366
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Come on, guys, no-one is going to be so stupid to try and introduce a road toll charge only for foreigners. That would be clearly against EU law, that's for sure.

My guess is that they want to introduce road toll for everyone. Then they reduce the German motor vehicle tax for everyone. Those who buy a vignette will end at the same charge as before. Foreigners pay road tolls like everyone does in France, in Italy, in Austria, to name but a few.

The positive thing is that the road toll revenue have to be used for the road network. The vehicle tax just flows into the general budget, in other words, it disappears, just like the fuel tax.

On the other hand, German people will try to be smart and save the money for the motorway vignette and will use country roads. Traffic may increase horribly, people will be stuck in traffic jams, and on top of that in the cities, because country roads often go through the cities.Even worse, traffic accident numbers will increase, as it is widely known that most accidents occur on these country roads.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 12:46 AM   #5367
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Come on, guys, no-one is going to be so stupid to try and introduce a road toll charge only for foreigners. That would be clearly against EU law, that's for sure.

My guess is that they want to introduce road toll for everyone. Then they reduce the German motor vehicle tax for everyone. Those who buy a vignette will end at the same charge as before. Foreigners pay road tolls like everyone does in France, in Italy, in Austria, to name but a few.

The positive thing is that the road toll revenue have to be used for the road network. The vehicle tax just flows into the general budget, in other words, it disappears, just like the fuel tax.

On the other hand, German people will try to be smart and save the money for the motorway vignette and will use country roads. Traffic may increase horribly, people will be stuck in traffic jams, and on top of that in the cities, because country roads often go through the cities.Even worse, traffic accident numbers will increase, as it is widely known that most accidents occur on these country roads.
This way it might actually work, if you lower motor vehicle tax for everyone and not just for those, who bought the vignette.

However, I am positive the overall budget for roadworks won't be any higher. There's simply no political will to invest into infrastructure. Right now this is just a typical right wing stunt. Search a foreign boogie man and slap the shit out of him. Foreign cars are definitely not the reason why the Autobahn is getting worse and worse.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 02:08 AM   #5368
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The positive thing is that the road toll revenue have to be used for the road network.
Mmmh... with this naive hope you activated my Italian-borne sixth sense, which is asking me to warn you: "Rule #1 of democracy: anything which flows through a system managed by politicians, must be considered lost."
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Old August 12th, 2013, 09:18 AM   #5369
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Mmmh... with this naive hope you activated my Italian-borne sixth sense, which is asking me to warn you: "Rule #1 of democracy: anything which flows through a system managed by politicians, must be considered lost."
I should have said: the road toll revenue MUST be used for the road network by law.
Truck toll revenues are being used for the road network, alas, most of it will be used for PPPs.
But hey: the A1 from Bremen to Hamburg is great now, isn't it?
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Old August 12th, 2013, 09:20 AM   #5370
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that is an empty one-liner for politicians. They said the same about the transfer of all LKW maut revenue to road construction. What they didn't say is that the regular road budget was lowered by the same amount, resulting in no real increase of road funding.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 11:17 AM   #5371
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You're right, the ECJ would not allow refunds only to German citizens. However, the ECJ would allow refunds only to German residents or only for vehicles registered in Germany.

Anyway, the proposal is stupid and just populist politics.
Indeed. The same way that the free market principle is ignored in the case of limiting selling marihuana in The Netherlands to local residents.

Even more, we may be sure, that when it goes about Germany, the ECJ will bend over as if in prison showers.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #5372
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Please, tell me where you're teaching EU-law. I'd love to know. It already struck me when you claimed that Art 22 Schengen Borders Code prohibits any sort of speed limit, which is just utter bullshit.

The ECJ never confirmed a discrimination based on residency? Dafuq? What about this one: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/showPdf...=1&cid=6229656

Labour and employment law 101.

This is basically a very similar case to the student tickets in Vienna. Reductions (namely those on the motor vehicle tax) are only granted to those who pay their taxes in Germany, others, who are in a similar situation (both paid the price for the Vignette), don't get to cash in those reductions. Who are those, who don't get to cash in the reduction? Almost exclusively foreigners. It doesn't matter where the German residents are from, but where the indirectly discriminated test sample is from.
You are mixing apples and oranges. The status of migrant worker grants the social rights, not the residentship. The migrant worker status (workers status) rights are quite clearly enumarated. Those rights clearly can't be further conditioned by residentship. It is not possible to condition those rights by both residenthship and worker status.

The status of a student is a similar and there is taxative enumeration of exemptions.

Still, all those issues are still conditioned either by, residenthisp, worker status, student status. It would be no problem to restrict the possible tax refund in the same way with the same restrictions. This would still hugely affect majority of foreign users of the German roads.

You are however forgetting that there are rights or responsibilities that can be conditioned by residenthship and residenthsip only. The right for use of motorway free of charge is in no way connected to the workers right, its nowehere even slightly defined as a social right.

A possible tax compensation is discutable as whether it would get this status, indeed. I am quite certain that there exists a legal way how to arrange it without fringing the social rigts. Germans are very flexible when it comes to EU law.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 01:54 PM   #5373
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New road design revealed

Four new designs were revealed that are now compulsory for new and renewed (non-dual carriageway) federal roads in Germany. The Federal Road Research Institute (BASt) wants to make roads saver and reduce the risk of accident as 60% of all casualties in road traffic occur on country roads.

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Das sind die neuen Landstraßentypen

Mit vier neuen Landstraßentypen will das Bundesverkehrsministerium die Unfallzahlen auf senken und neue Landstraßen standardisieren.
Sie gelten nach Angaben der Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen (BASt) vom 30.7.2013 künftig für den Neubau aber auch den Um- und Ausbau von Landstraßen des Bundes.





Fernstraßen (hohes Verkehrsaufkommen):
  • Künftig dreispurig, mit einem mittleren Fahrstreifen, der abwechselnd als Überholstreifen freigegeben ist.
  • Verknüpfungen mit dem nachgeordneten Straßennetz sollen kreuzungsfrei mit Einfädelungs- und Ausfädelungsstreifen ausgebildet werden.
  • Ein breiter Mittelstreifen mit grüner Einfärbung trennt beide Fahrtrichtungen räumlich voneinander.




Überregionalstraßen (oft hohes Verkehrsaufkommen):
  • In regelmäßigen Abständen dreistreifige Abschnitte mit Überholspur für eine Fahrtrichtung. Kreuzungen und Einmündungen sollen in der Regel signalisiert werden.
  • Die Mittelmarkierung zur Trennung der Fahrtrichtungen wird mit doppelten Linien ausgeführt.




Regionalstraßen (mittleres Verkehrsaufkommen):
  • Es bleibt beim Überholen auf dem Gegenverkehrsfahrstreifen
  • Kreuzungen und Einmündungen werden nur bei hoher Verkehrsbelastung signalisiert
  • alternativ sind auch sichere Kreisverkehre möglich.




Nahbereichsstraßen (geringes Verkehrsaufkommen)
  • Nur ein breiter Fahrstreifen ohne Mittelmarkierung, der von den Verkehrsteilnehmern in beiden Fahrtrichtungen benutzt werden kann
  • Begrenzung nur durch zwei seitlich vom Fahrbahnrand abgesetzte Leitlinien.
  • Diese können bei der Begegnung von zwei Fahrzeugen mit reduzierter Geschwindigkeit überfahren werden.
  • Die breiten abgerückten Randmarkierungen sollen dazu beitragen, das Abkommen von der Fahrbahn im Begegnungsfall zu vermeiden.




Nach Mitteilung der BASt ereignen sich rund 60 Prozent aller tödlichen Unfälle auf Landstraßen. Mit der neuen "Richtlinien für die Anlage von Landstraßen (RAL)" soll gezielt durch die neuen Überholstreifen und die Gestaltung von Kreuzungen und Knotenpunkten die Verkehrssicherheit deutlich erhöht werden. Die "RAL" wurde von der Forschungsgesellschaft für Straßen- und Verkehrswesen (FGSV) vorgestellt. Diese basieren unter anderem auf Erkenntnissen mehrerer Projekte aus dem Forschungsprogramm des Bundesministeriums für Verkehr und der Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/n...n-7519685.html
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Old August 12th, 2013, 02:12 PM   #5374
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I like the double non-continue middle line. Sometimes it's difficult to tell which line is the marker for different directions, and that one makes that easier.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #5375
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Which is why some countries use yellow in the middle.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 03:15 PM   #5376
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My latest video from Germany. Driving Bundesstraße 10 through Stuttgart:

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Old August 12th, 2013, 03:18 PM   #5377
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Which is why some countries use yellow in the middle.
Then you can get confused with construction site temporary lines... unless you use another colour.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 03:35 PM   #5378
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Which is why some countries use yellow in the middle.
When I was born we used yellow on sides and white in the middle.

Getting out of 90s nostalgia (by which I'm affected today), now I'm realizing the US design has its advantages.

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Then you can get confused with construction site temporary lines... unless you use another colour.
I'm still not convinced by using yellow for roadworks. Too much German, while many other countries use yellow for different reasons: Italy for bus and bike lanes, Switzerland too...
In Germany it works fine because everything else is white, and I don't like it.

Years ago I saw bright red stripes used for roadworks on an Austrian highway, it seemed fine to me.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 04:43 PM   #5379
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The new "Nahbereichsstraßen" concept, is very French-like :]
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Old August 12th, 2013, 04:51 PM   #5380
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Then you can get confused with construction site temporary lines... unless you use another colour.
Hmmm. Can't say I've noticed that closely. I think they just black out the "permanent" lines and repaint them to reflect the temporary traffic pattern. It's always clear what you're supposed to do....
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