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Old August 12th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #5381
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The new "Nahbereichsstraßen" concept, is very French-like :]
I wouldn't know. Apparently my German's too far gone to take all that in. Or else it's 'cause the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet. (;-), Spinoza)
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #5382
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Hmmm. Can't say I've noticed that closely. I think they just black out the "permanent" lines and repaint them to reflect the temporary traffic pattern. It's always clear what you're supposed to do....
I'm colour blind, so when it comes to colours, I'm always against.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #5383
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I like the double non-continue middle line. Sometimes it's difficult to tell which line is the marker for different directions, and that one makes that easier.
In the USA, double-dashed lines denote reversible lanes.

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Old August 12th, 2013, 08:39 PM   #5384
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Not necessarily. They could be HOV lanes as well. There are no HOV lanes in Germany as far as I am aware (there are bus-only lanes). The only reversible lane in Germany I know offhand is located on the Rügenbrücke (Rügen Island Bridge) in Stralsund.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 09:59 PM   #5385
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Not necessarily. They could be HOV lanes as well. There are no HOV lanes in Germany as far as I am aware (there are bus-only lanes). The only reversible lane in Germany I know offhand is located on the Rügenbrücke (Rügen Island Bridge) in Stralsund.
Elbtunnel as well.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 10:08 PM   #5386
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In the EU, Article 22 of European Regulation 562 of 2006 prohibits reduced speed limits at internal Schengen Area border crossings. However, the member states widely flaunt this law. Today, I crossed an internal Schengen Area border with speed limits on both sides of the border at 130 km/h and a brief illegal speed limit of 30 km/h at the border.
Interesting, this article seems to be in conflict with the Swiss borders, as those borders need a speed limit for the customs which are still checked randomly on cars.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 10:10 PM   #5387
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Elbtunnel as well.
I think that one was only temporary reversible for the renovation of the other tubes. The 4th tube was constructed in 2002, but since then there was almost no time all 4 tubes were in operation until the renovation of the tubes was completed in 2013. If everything's right, they should have 4-tube operation now, but no reversible tubes anymore (save for future renovations and maintenance).
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Old August 12th, 2013, 10:33 PM   #5388
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I think that one was only temporary reversible for the renovation of the other tubes. The 4th tube was constructed in 2002, but since then there was almost no time all 4 tubes were in operation until the renovation of the tubes was completed in 2013. If everything's right, they should have 4-tube operation now, but no reversible tubes anymore (save for future renovations and maintenance).
Drove through the Elbtunnel a few times in the last time, often at night (10-11 PM). There were only two tubes open several times, one tube per direction, during daytime all four tubes were open.

The two middle tubes appear to be reversible still if required.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 11:30 PM   #5389
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It makes no sense to use reversible operations if all 4 tubes are available. If you have 3 tubes in one direction, it means there are 6 lanes in one direction, while the A7 before and after the tunnel has only 3 lanes.

They often shut down a tube at night for washing and inspections. Reversible operations should only be used if one of the tubes is unavailable for a prolonged period of time, but that seems unlikely given the fact that the 11-year renovation of the 3 old tubes has recently been completed.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 12:52 AM   #5390
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People tend to drive much more carefully in tunnels thus reducing capacity of the road compared to the stretch before (due to longer safety distances between cars e.g.). So I suppose that opening 3 tubes in one direction can make some sense even if there are only 3 lanes to and from the tunnel.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 02:13 AM   #5391
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You are mixing apples and oranges. The status of migrant worker grants the social rights, not the residentship. The migrant worker status (workers status) rights are quite clearly enumarated. Those rights clearly can't be further conditioned by residentship. It is not possible to condition those rights by both residenthship and worker status.

The status of a student is a similar and there is taxative enumeration of exemptions.

Still, all those issues are still conditioned either by, residenthisp, worker status, student status. It would be no problem to restrict the possible tax refund in the same way with the same restrictions. This would still hugely affect majority of foreign users of the German roads.

You are however forgetting that there are rights or responsibilities that can be conditioned by residenthship and residenthsip only. The right for use of motorway free of charge is in no way connected to the workers right, its nowehere even slightly defined as a social right.

A possible tax compensation is discutable as whether it would get this status, indeed. I am quite certain that there exists a legal way how to arrange it without fringing the social rigts. Germans are very flexible when it comes to EU law.
Always nice to read some of Surel's EU-law expertise.

You just skipped over the ruling shortly without even remotely understanding, what the court ruled. Classic.

This is not about social rights, or workers rights, but indirect discrimination. It doesn't matter what right we are talking about as long as it falls under the scope of EU-law and since we already know from the ruling on Fransson earlier this year, the scope of the Charter of Fundamental Rights is very, very, very wide. Introducing a toll exclusively on non residents would interfere with just so many rights (free movement of services, workers, free movement of people in general) and therefore violate Art 21 CFREU.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 11:12 AM   #5392
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I don't believe that a road toll will come.
CSU is only a small part of the coalition and their partners, CDU and FDP, are against a road toll, let alone the opposition.
Chancellor Merkel has - in her diplomatic way - showed that she is not in favour of a road toll. She let her speaker declare: Road financing will be an important issue in the next legislation period, and there are many ways to do that. Which avoids an open conflict with CSU.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 12:31 PM   #5393
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This is not about social rights, or workers rights, but indirect discrimination. It doesn't matter what right we are talking about as long as it falls under the scope of EU-law and since we already know from the ruling on Fransson earlier this year, the scope of the Charter of Fundamental Rights is very, very, very wide. Introducing a toll exclusively on non residents would interfere with just so many rights (free movement of services, workers, free movement of people in general) and therefore violate Art 21 CFREU.
It matters. It would be e.g. easy to make a social benefit of a toll refund. This would then clearly fall under the social rights, which are applicable only to certain groups. This is not based on residentship, but still quite discriminating. The EU is however full of such discrimination.

As I already showed. The Dutch law about marihuana selling is based on residentship discrimination, which shields in the exemption from the free market rules for drugs etc.

Yes, it would violate the gist of these principles, as many EU national laws in force already however. There is a way how to legaly implement it, and thats what matters, and the ECJ could not do anythnig.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 12:35 PM   #5394
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It makes no sense to use reversible operations if all 4 tubes are available. If you have 3 tubes in one direction, it means there are 6 lanes in one direction, while the A7 before and after the tunnel has only 3 lanes.

They often shut down a tube at night for washing and inspections. Reversible operations should only be used if one of the tubes is unavailable for a prolonged period of time, but that seems unlikely given the fact that the 11-year renovation of the 3 old tubes has recently been completed.
It doesn't matter what you think it should be. Traffic control equipment is in place. So at least 4 of the 8 lanes are reversible at any time. Whether they actually get reversed is a different matter, however.

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CSU is only a small part of the coalition and their partners, CDU and FDP, are against a road toll, let alone the opposition.
Despite being just a small part of the coalition and despite being the only ones in favour of it they managed to force through their beloved Betreuungsgeld. I wouldn't be surprised if they repeat it with this toll scheme.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #5395
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I guess a toll will come sooner or later. But obviously not for foreigners only, that's simply an election stunt to fool voters who don't have the smallest idea of EU law.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 01:03 PM   #5396
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Despite being just a small part of the coalition and despite being the only ones in favour of it they managed to force through their beloved Betreuungsgeld. I wouldn't be surprised if they repeat it with this toll scheme.
Crazy Horst is trying to get the prices up. But he will never let a coalition fail.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 03:34 PM   #5397
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It matters. It would be e.g. easy to make a social benefit of a toll refund. This would then clearly fall under the social rights, which are applicable only to certain groups. This is not based on residentship, but still quite discriminating. The EU is however full of such discrimination.

As I already showed. The Dutch law about marihuana selling is based on residentship discrimination, which shields in the exemption from the free market rules for drugs etc.

Yes, it would violate the gist of these principles, as many EU national laws in force already however. There is a way how to legaly implement it, and thats what matters, and the ECJ could not do anythnig.
Comparing a residence based limitation of Marijuana to tolls on Autobahns is actually no comparison at all. Indirect discrimination can be justified, if a legitimate cause is the reasoning, why it was introduced. As for Marijuana; drug tourism and the crime related to this is justification enough, why this indirect discrimination is no violation of EU-law. It's a matter of public order and safety.

A toll, with the only purpose to make foreigners pay, is no legitimate reason. Period.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #5398
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A toll, with the only purpose to make foreigners pay, is no legitimate reason. Period.
But the toll would be there to make foreigners pay, because at the moment they don't pay at all, whereas the residents/tax payers pay.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 05:16 PM   #5399
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Foreign drivers are also tax payers in Germany. They pay fuel taxes (on average 195% of the cost they cause)
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Old August 13th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #5400
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But the toll would be there to make foreigners pay, because at the moment they don't pay at all, whereas the residents/tax payers pay.
You reveal a rather short sighted attitude. What you seem to forget is that a road toll does more harm than good to the broader economy. It increases transport costs and drives off tourists and other businesses.
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