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Old October 19th, 2013, 10:57 PM   #5621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphelion View Post
Despite there being no direct impact, environmental arguments and fears of Fehmarn becoming a transit island (= less tourism and work opportunities) will probably be expressed.
They have been expressed from the start. Although the impact of a bridge over the Baltic Sea is no longer an issue - because there will be no bridge but a tunnel - there are indeed fears that the region may become less attractive to tourism because of increasing traffic. Railways are going right through the small tourist towns along the Lübecker Bucht - the coastline between Lübeck and Fehmarn - and a heavy increase of freight train traffic will lead to more noise inside these towns - even at night. So there is a discussion going on to build new railway lines further away - with huge costs for Deutsche Bahn.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:04 PM   #5622
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Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Is it true? Are there realistic plannings to upgrade this sections to a motorway (which would only be realistic) or is it just on the wish list?
Of course! But the "Bundesverkehrswegeplan" (BVWP) is also only a wish list .

The A21 upgrade b/n Kiel and A1 is urgent demand in the BVWP 2003, A21 b/n A1 and A24 is further demand with planning law (but nothing happened yet), A21 b/n A24 and A39 is further demand. All projects are still in the proposal lists for the BVWP 2015.

The A21 project is also called "Eastern Hamburg bypass" and rivals with the A20 "Western Hamburg bypass". There are always political discussions which project is more important. Well, the discussion is especially in Schleswig-Holstein. Hamburg and Lower Saxony prefer the A20.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:29 PM   #5623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Railways are going right through the small tourist towns along the Lübecker Bucht - the coastline between Lübeck and Fehmarn - and a heavy increase of freight train traffic will lead to more noise inside these towns - even at night.
I noticed a trend that rail projects are not as unopposed these days as they used to be (compared to road projects). Railway noise and vibration is a major issue, the Dutch railroad construction company Prorail has to redo nearly all of their EIA's because they fail at the Council of State over vibrations and noise.
Not to mention the preceding political / social discussions about it.

Road traffic upgrades are less of a problem on Fehmarn. They could just widen the existing B207, which is comfortably far outside towns.

Are they still wanting to construct a 4-lane tunnel under the Fehmarnsund? There is currently a combined road/rail arch bridge that probably needs replacement to expand the railway corridor. Twinning would be sufficient if only the road part needs expansion.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 11:29 AM   #5624
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I noticed a trend that rail projects are not as unopposed these days as they used to be (compared to road projects).
I think the opposition against new rail projects is bigger than the opposition against new road projects in Germany - especially from so-called conservationists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Road traffic upgrades are less of a problem on Fehmarn. They could just widen the existing B207, which is comfortably far outside towns.
The plan approval procedure was started in October 2011. It is planned 2x2 with hard shoulders north (11km) and south (6.7km) of the Fehmarnsund. It could get a part of the A1, but I think it is officially planned as B207.
I rarely read about that procedure (never since last October). The main discussion is the onshore rail project (Heico-M mentioned it) and the tunnel itself. There is no real discussion about the onshore road project.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Are they still wanting to construct a 4-lane tunnel under the Fehmarnsund? There is currently a combined road/rail arch bridge that probably needs replacement to expand the railway corridor. Twinning would be sufficient if only the road part needs expansion.
The Fehmarnsund crossing was not mentioned within the BVWP 2003 but there were a lot of discussion. A new crossing is part of a preliminary proposal list of Schleswig-Holstein for the new BVWP 2015. I read a newspaper article last December: An "undisclosed" expertise said that the old bridge could not sustain the future load after tunnel completion.

One idea is to build a road tunnel and to renew the existing bridge for the railway but this would be a very expensive project.

I haven't read any interesting article about the Fehmarnsund crossing in 2013.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #5625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The Fehmarnsund crossing was not mentioned within the BVWP 2003 but there were a lot of discussion. A new crossing is part of a preliminary proposal list of Schleswig-Holstein for the new BVWP 2015. I read a newspaper article last December: An "undisclosed" expertise said that the old bridge could not sustain the future load after tunnel completion.

One idea is to build a road tunnel and to renew the existing bridge for the railway but this would be a very expensive project.
It is actually the other way around. There will be a new two-track railway crossing as the existing bridge cannot bear the load of heavy freight trains. This re-alignment will make way for a wider B 207 on the Fermarnsund-Brücke. 3 or 4 lanes would be possible once the railway track has gone.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 08:40 PM   #5626
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It is actually the other way around.
Do you have any detailed info? I have not read about any precise plan. There are only a couple of suggestions.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:48 AM   #5627
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Do you have any detailed info? I have not read about any precise plan. There are only a couple of suggestions.
It isn't a precise proposal yet. However, DB Netz considers the Fehmarnsundbrücke structural unfit for future loads. Which is a strong hint that Deutsche Bahn aims for a new railway crossing of the Fehmarnsund.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:56 AM   #5628
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I also guess they don't see too nicely a one-track bridge along a supposedly two-track line.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 11:45 AM   #5629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
It isn't a precise proposal yet. However, DB Netz considers the Fehmarnsundbrücke structural unfit for future loads. Which is a strong hint that Deutsche Bahn aims for a new railway crossing of the Fehmarnsund.
Quote:
Die Überprüfung der Fehmarnsundbrücke ergab, dass das vorhandene Bauwerk für die prognostizierten erhöhten Belastungen durch den Straßen- und Schienenverkehr nach Eröffnung der Festen Fehmarnbeltquerung zumindest ertüchtigt werden muss
Quote:
The verification of the Fehmarn bridge showed that the existing building must at least toughened up / renovated for the predicted increased loads by road and rail traffic after the opening of the fixed Fehmanbelt crossing.
The Fehmarnsund bridge must at least be renovated. A new bridge or tunnel would be a maximum invest.

I also think that an upgrade of the Fehmarnsund crossing is necessary - and I prefer a crossing w/o suspension caused by strong wind - but I guess Germany will try to implement the minimum solution.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:04 PM   #5630
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A5 Baden-Baden - Offenburg

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Des View Post
Another update: On the A5 between Basel and Karlsruhe the last 50 km before Karlsruhe are nearly finished as 2x3 (was 2x2). Hopefully the extra lanes open to traffic soon!
The traffic is already running in 7 of 9 sections on its own carriageways, but there are only 2 lanes available. The traffic in the last two A5 sections (no. 4 and no. 8) is still running on one carriageway ("4+0"). I guess the section will be opened 2x3 all at once in January or February 2014.
Some pics of sections 1 to 7 b/n Baden-Baden and Appenweier (taken by Gernsbagger on Friday 18th October 2013; OSM):















More older pics: https://picasaweb.google.com/Gernsba...ilderBauphase4.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 05:26 PM   #5631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSzumaher View Post
My corrections:

Quote:
1. A7 961.6km
1. A7 971.0 km
No. 961.6km is absolutely corrcect! (I calculated it several times!)

Quote:
Quote:
4. A4 581.6km
4. A4 606.0 km
My calculation was wrong, but yours is totally wrong. Correct length: 582.4km (the western part in NRW has a length of 149.7km. 46.0km are in Hesse - w/o A7 doublication of numbers! The Thuringian A4 is 176.3km long and Saxony has a 210.4km long A4 part)

Quote:
Quote:
7. A6 474.0km
7. A6 484.0 km
The kilometrage is decreasing until 227.0 and then increasing again from 227.0 . Correct length: 483.7km.

Quote:
Quote:
22. A96 179.3km
22. A96 172.2 km
Stupid mistake: 172.2km.

Quote:
Quote:
40. A11 90.7km
35. A11 109.9 km
I only took the Brandenburg part. 109.9km is correct.

Quote:
Quote:
42. A94 87.4km
50. A94 64.1 km
70.1km.

Quote:
Quote:
63. A250 31.3km
Why not added to the A39?
Now part of A39 .


I have added the length by numbering and by states. I had a miscalculation, but now both have the same result: 12929.2km.

Last edited by MichiH; October 21st, 2013 at 05:56 PM.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 05:37 PM   #5632
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Length of Autobahn network

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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
I've counted the length of the German Autobahn network. According to my counting the current total length is 12940.8km
Correction. Thx @DSzumaher .

The total Autobahn network length is 12930.1km.

Length (sorted by numbering):
1. A7 962.2km
2. A3 769.1km
3. A1 747.8km
4. A4 582.4km
5. A9 527.6km
6. A8 505.3km
7. A6 484.0km
8. A2 473.1km
9. A5 440.0km
10. A20 344.6km
11. A61 319.7km
12. A81 276.2km
13. A93 268.3km
14. A14 267.5km
15. A44 258.1km
16. A45 256.6km
17. A31 240.4km
18. A24 236.9km
19. A38 219.3km
20. A71 210.2km
21. A10 195.8km
22. A96 172.2km
23. A73 167.2km
24. A27 162.0km
25. A72 153.1km
26. A13 151.1km
27. A46 146.9km
28. A92 134.3km
29. A30 127.5km
30. A19 122.8km
31. A70 120.0km
32. A66 121.4km
33. A57 116.0km
34. A60 113.3km
35. A11 109.9km
36. A39 99.1km
37. A28 96.5km
38. A52 96.3km
39. A29 94.5km
40. A40 92.4km
41. A43 91.5km
42. A23 89.3km
43. A94 70.1km
44. A33 80.6km
45. A62 79.0km
46. A48 77.6km
47. A63 70.0km
48. A59 69.3km
49. A95 68.8km
50. A15 64.1km
51. A65 58.7km
52. A67 58.4km
53. A42 58.3km
54. A12 58.0km
55. A99 57.7km
56. A21 51.6km
57. A98 46.5km
58. A49 45.1km
59. A17 44.7km
60. A661 36.9km
61. A395 35.5km
62. A620 32.1km
63. A115 28.1km
64. A565 27.2km
65. A210 25.3km
66. A111 24.0km
67. A100 23.6km
68. A215 20.5km
69. A555 20.0km
70. A480 19.4km
71. A485 19.4km
72. A113 19.1km
73. A352 17.3km
74. A25 16.4km
75. A535 15.8km
76. A37 14.2km
77. A650 14.0km
78. A64 13.7km
79. A560 13.2km
80. A553 13.2km
81. A659 12.0km
82. A391 12.0km
83. A671 11.6km
84. A656 11.5km
85. A26 10.9km
86. A270 10.5km
87. A995 10.5km
88. A445 10.4km
89. A602 10.2km
90. A623 9.8km
91. A261 9.0km
92. A143 9.0km
93. A293 8.6km
94. A114 8.5km
95. A643 8.1km
96. A540 6.9km
97. A281 6.2km
98. A864 6.0km
99. A542 5.6km
100. A544 5.4km
101. A524 5.4km
102. A648 5.3km
103. A516 5.1km
104. A980 5.1km
105. A117 4.8km
106. A280 4.6km
107. A952 4.5km
108. A253 4.4km
109. A861 4.3km
110. A226 4.2km
111. A562 4.1km
112. A392 3.9km
113. A103 3.7km
114. A559 3.4km
115. A573 3.4km
116. A672 2.6km
117. A571 2.6km
118. A255 2.4km
119. A831 2.3km
120. A252 1.5km

Length (sorted by states):
1. Bayern 2515.9km
2. Nordrhein-Westfalen 2218.3km
3. Niedersachsen 1433.3km
4. Baden-Württemberg 1067.6km
5. Hessen 982.8km
6. Rheinland-Pfalz 874.6km
7. Brandenburg 795.9km
8. Sachsen 566.9km
9. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 552.9km
10. Schleswig-Holstein 538.5km
11. Thüringen 512.5km
12. Sachsen-Anhalt 409.8km
13. Saarland 241.3km
14. Hamburg 80.2km
15. Berlin 78.2km
16. Bremen 61.4km


Adding the length of Yellow Autobahns (calculation by Chris plus 2013 openings: 2,365km + 9km) and substraction Autobahns with only one carriageway (62km) makes a total motorway-like road length in Germany of 15242km.
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Last edited by MichiH; October 21st, 2013 at 10:30 PM. Reason: A98 corrected; A6+A7 corrected
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Old October 21st, 2013, 06:23 PM   #5633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The Fehmarnsund bridge must at least be renovated. A new bridge or tunnel would be a maximum invest.

I also think that an upgrade of the Fehmarnsund crossing is necessary - and I prefer a crossing w/o suspension caused by strong wind - but I guess Germany will try to implement the minimum solution.
Who do mean by Germany? Deutsche Bahn for instance is certainly not keen on keeping the status quo. Wilhem275 has pointed it out already, one will prevent a final solution in which this single track section persists. One doesn't built a 25 km long double track tunnel just to hit a single track bottleneck a few kilometres on.

And then is it not necessarily cheaper to strengthen the existing structure.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 08:18 PM   #5634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Who do mean by Germany?
Bundesregierung (Federal Government), Bundesverkehrsministerium (Federal Ministry of Transport), Deutsche Bahn (German Railway company), Schleswig-Holstein (Federal State),... And of course the citizens. The common German doesn't like major (transport) projects, for instance S21, BER, extension of Munich and Frankfurt airports,....

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Deutsche Bahn for instance is certainly not keen on keeping the status quo.
But they must pay it! If there is no money for an adequate Fehmarnsund crossing (about 1 billion €!?) they have to implement a temporary solution and deley a better solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Wilhem275 has pointed it out already, one will prevent a final solution in which this single track section persists. One doesn't built a 25 km long double track tunnel just to hit a single track bottleneck a few kilometres on.
Yes, but I think it would not be a bottleneck - at least not for the railway! The Fehmarnsund crossing will only be a bottleneck for the road traffic in peak time but definitely not every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
And then is it not necessarily cheaper to strengthen the existing structure.
I know...
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Old October 21st, 2013, 10:00 PM   #5635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
No. 961.6km is absolutely corrcect!
Now the score is yet another. What is wrong?

DK - HH-NI (0,0 - 173,1) = 173,1 km
HH-NI - Horster Dreieck (9,7 - 1,8) = 7,9 km
Horster Dreieck - AK H-Ost - (18,0 - 142,5) = 124,5 km
AK H-Ost - near A4 (150,5 - 366,4) = 215,9 km
near A4 - A (521,5 - 962,3) = 440,8 km

173,1 + 7,9 + 124,5 + 215,9 + 440,8 = 962,2 km

Quote:
My calculation was wrong, but yours is totally wrong. Correct length: 582.4km
Right.

Quote:
The kilometrage is decreasing until 227.0 and then increasing again from 227.0 . Correct length: 483.7km.
F - Vierheimer Kreuz (687,2 - 555,7) = 131,5 km
Vierheimer Kreuz - CZ (555,7 - 908,2) = 352,5 km

131,5 + 352,5 = 484,0 km

Quote:
70.1km.
Do counted together with Malching bypass, which is now B12?

Well, that's enough thoroughness.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 10:10 PM   #5636
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The routes for the future A98 section 6 from Wehr to Murg are still in discussion (OSM): http://buergerforum-hochrhein.de/.
The plan approval procedure for A98 section 5 was announced to be started in fall 2013. According to the current time schedule ground breaking should be in 2016 - a very short time for a plan approval procedure, especially for projects in Baden-Württemberg and especially for an A98 section!



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The B29 Schwäbisch Gmünd bypass (OSM) will be opened in late November 2013. This last 2.6km long section was started in August 2006 (plan approval order was passed in March 1997) and contains a 2.230km long tunnel.

There was an internet vote finding a name for the tunnel. The winner was "Bud-Spencer-Tunnel" but the officials did not agree and now it is called "Gmünder Einhorntunnel". It has only a 2-laned tube because the predicted AADT 2015 in the tunnel is 19,600 vehicles per day. Therefore no need for a second tube, but it features a emergency tunnel. Costs: 280 million €, see project page. I guess a full second tube would not have significant higher costs.
The B29 tunnel in Schwäbisch Gmünd is going to be opened on 25 November 2013. Newspaper article with some pics:> click <.

The B176 Pödelwitz/Neukieritzsch bypass was opened on 18th October 2013 (6.8km; 30 million €; groundbreaking: 8th May 2012; OSM).

Some pics of the Störbrücke (A23 Itzehoe bypass): > click <. Completion: late 2015.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 10:26 PM   #5637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSzumaher View Post
Now the score is yet another. What is wrong?

173,1 + 7,9 + 124,5 + 215,9 + 440,8 = 962,2 km
I am stu... I had the same result but I forgot to correct it. Sorry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSzumaher View Post
131,5 + 352,5 = 484,0 km
Typo... You are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSzumaher View Post
Do counted together with Malching bypass, which is now B12?
Yes. The Malching bypass is dedicated as A94, see BAYSIS. It doesn't matter if it is signs are yellow or blue. There is also a blue B road south of Ulm .

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Originally Posted by DSzumaher View Post
Well, that's enough thoroughness.
Thanks for correcting .
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Old October 21st, 2013, 11:08 PM   #5638
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There is also a blue B road south of Ulm .
This? Now I understand, why it's only B road in Germany with A color lines in GM.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 11:25 PM   #5639
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Originally Posted by DSzumaher View Post
This? Now I understand, why it's only B road in Germany with A color lines in GM.
Yes, see also this wikipedia list.

Quote:
The listed roads are marked with blue signs as an Autobahn, but they are not dedicated as Autobahn according to the federal highway law.
The rules of the Road Traffic Regulations (StVO) for Autobahns is in force on them.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 12:09 AM   #5640
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Adding the length of Yellow Autobahns (calculation by Chris plus 2013 openings: 2,365km + 9km) and substraction Autobahns with only one carriageway (62km) makes a total motorway-like road length in Germany of 15242km.
Which are these?
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