daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 24th, 2013, 11:53 AM   #5661
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
I am aware of that and theoretically you are right, but user profiles for foreigners and locals are different. A foreigner often uses the motorway network for one day only, but in none of the vignette systems you can buy a day vignette for 365th of the price of a year vignette.

BTW: at Iranian toll stations I came through for free whenever I said that I am German.
Yeah right.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 24th, 2013, 12:48 PM   #5662
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmBeobachter View Post
I'm sorry but what you did say is a lie.
Und wo habe ich gesagt, daß das meine persönliche Meinung wäre ?
And where did I say that that's my personal opinion ?
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #5663
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Tolls are not necessary from an economic point of view. Fuel taxes raise more than enough money to maintain and expand the road network.
There's plenty of money raised from motorists already, correct. But all levies raised as taxes go to the general pool and then are distributed by the government at will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
However, politicians continue to divert taxes on motoring to other destinations than roads. This will happen with the tolls as well.
Tolls are earmarked and do not go in the general pool, they will be used exclusively for roads. Of course, what will happen is that the amount of funds from the general pool will shrink to compensate for the earmarked toll money and in the end nothing will be done.

It's all a big smokescreen and people are dumb enough to fall for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is no easier cash cow than motorists.
Amen.
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #5664
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,409
Likes (Received): 2082

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
given the low number of cars from abroad, the whole thing may also backfire, with higher overall costs for the German taxpayer
Exactly! A car toll w/o increasing dues for locals is total bullshit. The costs for the foreign cars are too high. That's kindergarten! In addition a lot of locals will avoid Autobahns and rather clogging through-roads.

Oh Herr, schmeiß Hirn ra! (Lord let them brains rain from above!)
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 10:05 PM   #5665
Heico-M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Flensburg, DE
Posts: 290
Likes (Received): 115

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Exactly! A car toll w/o increasing dues for locals is total bullshit. The costs for the foreign cars are too high. That's kindergarten! In addition a lot of locals will avoid Autobahns and rather clogging through-roads.

Oh Herr, schmeiß Hirn ra! (Lord let them brains rain from above!)
Seehofer will drop the road toll when the others drop something else. It's politics.
Heico-M no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #5666
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Foreigners buy vignettes for only a return trip or a few incidental trips in Germany, while the average German driver will use the system throughout the year. It's very likely that foreigners will pay a much larger share of toll revenue than the 5% of the vehicle kilometers they are responsible for. For example, short-term vignettes in Slovakia are good for 35% of vignette revenue while drivers who use them are likely responsible for far less than 35% of passenger car traffic mileage in Slovakia.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 10:18 PM   #5667
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,409
Likes (Received): 2082

The coalition negotiation is only a cockfight. The car toll project was already a part of the last coalition contract .
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 10:36 PM   #5668
Attus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rheinbach
Posts: 2,768
Likes (Received): 1039

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Seehofer will drop the road toll when the others drop something else. It's politics.
The agreement has been done. However, toll was the most imoortant thig for CSU.
Attus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 12:42 AM   #5669
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's very likely that foreigners will pay a much larger share of toll revenue than the 5% of the vehicle kilometers they are responsible for.
Yep, but will this compensate for the general costs of implementing a vignette system on the whole German territory?
Countries using vignettes are rather small, compared to Germany.
The annoyance of having to buy a vignette every year * all the German users should generate enough general discontent to let the people move against this decision...

It would be interesting if they'd apply a pay-per-use control based on the system already implemented for truck traffic; the infrastructure is already there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
I am aware of that and theoretically you are right, but user profiles for foreigners and locals are different. A foreigner often uses the motorway network for one day only, but in none of the vignette systems you can buy a day vignette for 365th of the price of a year vignette.
This may be true for countries using a vignette system. In those which are based on toll gates, every user pays the same and per-use, no matter what.

Where I live, a German citizen will not pay more than what I pay; actually, I pay a bit more, to use the Telepass service (but that's optional).
That's why I feel discriminated and I think this whole crap is just an act of bullying. Dedicing that foreigners should pay more for something, and pretending to get away with it, is a disturbing expression of self-righteousness, and that's dangerous in foreign politics.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 07:24 AM   #5670
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Foreigners buy vignettes for only a return trip or a few incidental trips in Germany, while the average German driver will use the system throughout the year. It's very likely that foreigners will pay a much larger share of toll revenue than the 5% of the vehicle kilometers they are responsible for. For example, short-term vignettes in Slovakia are good for 35% of vignette revenue while drivers who use them are likely responsible for far less than 35% of passenger car traffic mileage in Slovakia.
And Germans, who face just that pretty much wherever they go are sick of being milked and want to join the club. As I said before, this has nothing to do with reason or finances, it's simple lust for revenge.
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 07:25 AM   #5671
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
Seehofer will drop the road toll when the others drop something else. It's politics.
That is quite possible. And then he'll turn to his constituents claiming "I fought hard for you but the Berlin Mafia was stronger" and all will be forgiven. *sighs*
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 07:30 AM   #5672
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Yep, but will this compensate for the general costs of implementing a vignette system on the whole German territory?
Countries using vignettes are rather small, compared to Germany.
The annoyance of having to buy a vignette every year * all the German users should generate enough general discontent to let the people move against this decision...

It would be interesting if they'd apply a pay-per-use control based on the system already implemented for truck traffic; the infrastructure is already there.
I think the federal printers are up to the task. The system they are discussing now is that every car registered in Germany (that German vehicle tax is being paid for) get's a yearly vignette issued automatically every year. So the only issue Germans would have is to put the thing in their wind shield.

The very idea of a pay-per-use system is political suicide in Germany. Germans are extremely sensitive to governmental spying on them which would be possible through this system. Which, of course is illogical since we all have social media profiles and cellphones and use bank and credit cards. Like the government would need another tool...
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 08:43 AM   #5673
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,239
Likes (Received): 18302

I have a colleague at work that doesn't pay with credit card at all. He is obsessed with being spied, has no Facebook, no smartphone, not even a cellphone.
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 09:43 AM   #5674
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Probably we should discuss this in an OT section, but gosh, the privacy hysteria really got out of control. In my recent trips I was really concerned, just carrying my reflex with me made people crazy, I was asked to erase images that didn't even include people

"Bitte abbrechen, bitte abbrechen!" What? Man, I'm filming the trains, why the hell should someone care about you!


I might understand bad memories of StaSi in former DDR, but I really can't explain the origins of this collective hallucination through the nation...

May God have mercy on Obama now
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 11:22 AM   #5675
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,239
Likes (Received): 18302

I repost it here again

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Took a picture upon returning home

cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #5676
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I might understand bad memories of StaSi in former DDR, but I really can't explain the origins of this collective hallucination through the nation...
I think the reason for this is a completely different one. It's the fear of loss of control. Germans as a people (and I am one so I can speak on the subject... ) are a nation of obsessive compulsive control freaks. As long as they have at least the illusion of being in control they are fine. That is why they all post on Facebook with their smartphones and don't worry about anything. They have the illusion of being in control because of their individual account settings. The second someone else takes a pic or a piece of info Germans get very nervous because they cannot control what that someone might do with it. That's when they start remembering Stasi and Gestapo times all of a sudden. Obviously nothing of this is rational.
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 11:54 AM   #5677
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I have a colleague at work that doesn't pay with credit card at all. He is obsessed with being spied, has no Facebook, no smartphone, not even a cellphone.
Well, at least he's consequent He should probably up his dose of Haloperidol.
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 01:38 PM   #5678
SturmBeobachter
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Siemenstadt
Posts: 138
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Und wo habe ich gesagt, daß das meine persönliche Meinung wäre ?
And where did I say that that's my personal opinion ?
You did not make any quotes, so it means that it is Your opinion. Sorry, but introducing tolls is not a good idea.
SturmBeobachter no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #5679
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Ah huh. There are no speedlimits on a lot of stretches of motorways in Germany. I'm not going to quote it, so it's my opinion.
__________________

Stahlsturm liked this post
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2013, 06:24 PM   #5680
Stahlsturm
Registered User
 
Stahlsturm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regensburg
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmBeobachter View Post
You did not make any quotes, so it means that it is Your opinion. Sorry, but introducing tolls is not a good idea.
You do realize that I completely agree that tolls are unnecessary and will lead nowhere, right ? And you should also realize that your argument about quotes is completely absurd as Road_UK so fittingly pointed out.
Stahlsturm no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autobahn, baustelle, congestion, germany, highways, marode brücken, motorways, stau

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium