daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 22nd, 2013, 08:39 PM   #5801
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by 909 View Post
Regarding infrastructure, Germany is becoming more and more the sick man of Europe...
Can you actually prove this bold claim? Because it doesn't match my experience. The Germany I know is still well ahead infrastructure-wise bar a few countries maybe. And then you come along and talk it down. I'm curious to read your explanation.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 22nd, 2013, 09:15 PM   #5802
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

Germany is not becoming the sick man of Europe but Germany is getting more and more problems to maintain the existing and the future infrastructure network. I am complaining about the way Germany is handling it: Delays in planning and construction, rising costs, stupid political announcements, still big plans (BVWP 2015) but no money, bullshit discussion regarding car toll, no good financing concept, exaggerated ecological actions (bats are more important than humans),... It's imbecile!
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 09:46 PM   #5803
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Other than that, obviously, the infrastructure is falling apart. Some roads are in extremely bad condition almost going au pair with Belgium. Traffic congestion is getting out of control in places and traffic discipline is a lot to be desired for.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:09 PM   #5804
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,455
Likes (Received): 6132

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Germany is not becoming the sick man of Europe but Germany is getting more and more problems to maintain the existing and the future infrastructure network. I am complaining about the way Germany is handling it: Delays in planning and construction, rising costs, stupid political announcements, still big plans (BVWP 2015) but no money, bullshit discussion regarding car toll, no good financing concept, exaggerated ecological actions (bats are more important than humans),... It's imbecile!
Sounds like Holland in the 1990s.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:27 PM   #5805
909
-
 
909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,418

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Can you actually prove this bold claim? Because it doesn't match my experience. The Germany I know is still well ahead infrastructure-wise bar a few countries maybe. And then you come along and talk it down. I'm curious to read your explanation.
Some examples were given recently in this thread, but these are arguably the most illustrative:
From 1991 to 2012, Germany reduced its budget for maintenance by 20 percent, according to Gernot Sieg, a transportation expert and professor at the University of Muenster. It now spends 1.5 percent of its gross domestic product on maintenance, compared with a European average of 2.5 percent. About 46 percent of Germany’s bridges, 41 percent of its streets and 20 percent of its highways need repair, Dr. Sieg said. (NY Times)
Over the past two decades, money spent by the government on roads, bridges, railways and public transport infrastructure has fallen in real terms or stagnated, while in the period 1991 to 2010, the usage of the roads for passenger journeys increased by about 27 percent and freight by 75 percent, statistics published by the Environment Ministry and DIW show. As a result, the spending shortfall on upkeep of the transport network is running at about 4 billion euros as year, the DIW says. That’s causing fraying throughout. According to a report prepared for the German parliament in January, 14 percent of the country’s 39,000 highway bridges are in a condition that could compromise traffic safety. (Bloomberg)
This Summer a few concrete Autobahnen in southern Germany were damaged due to the heat. This could have been an incident, but recently more and more examples emerged showing the decline of Germany's roads. The Rader Hochbrücke (A7) was recently closed for all trucks due to emergency repairs, which caused massive traffic jams. The Rheinbrücke (A1) in Leverkusen is crumbling as we speak, idem for the Schwelmtalbrücke (A1) near Wuppertal, and more bridges are in desperate need of repair or replacement. The same applies to all bridges on the A45. It's estimated by the Deutsches Institut für Urbanistik that before 2030 a total 67,000 bridges need to be repaired or replaced. A growing number of Autobahnen is facing gridlock, but the length of time it takes to get planning permission and eventually a new road built is quite long.

From my experience, many roads in North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony are in bad or sometimes terrible shape. It's good to see that some are currently being fixed, but many others aren't. And in my opinion, projects like the Lövenich tunnel (A1) in Cologne; the new viaduct at Kreuz Oberhausen (A3); the northern bypass of Bad Oeynhausen (A30); widening of the A5 near Karlsruhe; widening of the A57 near Neuss; or the A33 between Osnabrück and Bielefeld, could and should (have) be(en) finished much earlier. Especially compared to new projects nowadays in the Netherlands (where planning of some projects took decades not that long ago).

The truth is that Germany has neglected its infrastructure. It looks like there is something fundamentally wrong with the attitude towards its roads, not only considering the closed crumbling bridges, but also because of the terrible slow construction of most projects, funding issues and ghostly unused construction sites.
__________________
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player. That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. And then is heard no more: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

MichiH liked this post

Last edited by 909; November 22nd, 2013 at 10:49 PM.
909 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:28 PM   #5806
XxlalixX
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 26
Likes (Received): 8

But germany is working on it...the elections this year might have changed the way they handle it...
XxlalixX no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:36 PM   #5807
909
-
 
909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,418

I hope so.
__________________
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player. That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. And then is heard no more: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
909 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:41 PM   #5808
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxlalixX View Post
But germany is working on it...the elections this year might have changed the way they handle it...
The new strategie (Bodewig committee) was already started in 2012 and decided at the Minister of Transport meeting in early October 2013 (> click <).

I think it is still only blabla or "stupid political announcements".

Funding is one important point but planning progress is another one. I've not yet read about plans (or even good ideas) to improve these procedures.
__________________

Stahlsturm liked this post
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:49 PM   #5809
Attus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rheinbach
Posts: 2,762
Likes (Received): 1038

Infrastructure networks in Germany (both train and road) are in very bad state. I think RoadUK wrote it right: it's falling apart. According to official(!) statistics, some 40% (I can't remember the precise value) of motorway bridges need to be refurbished immediately. I think the reality is even worse than that. In quite a large part of bridges is traffic somehow restricted (speed limit and/or weight limit and/or bridge is partially closed, A7 bridge over the Kiel Canal has all of them).
A1 bridge in Leverkusen is nowadays a very deep issue of road traffic, in rush hours, every day there's at least 8 km congestion from all directions towards that bridge.

Additionally the network, especially in densely inhabitated regions, is very poor. I mean, if you look at the map, the motorway network of Western Germany looks good, but is not able to manage the traffic. Every afternoon if you listen to radio, the women says: "Dear audience, I'll report about congestions but only about the ones which are longer than 5 km because we have no time to talk about everything." And then she lists ten, maybe twelve congested motorways. 18km, 12km, 8 km.

Lots of speed restrictions because of bad surface quality.

And the situation is similar in railways, too, but it is off topic here, so I only say, that is not better. The outrageous situation of Mainz Hbf. this summer was only the peak of iceberg.
Attus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:09 PM   #5810
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

Quote:
Originally Posted by 909 View Post
The truth is that Germany has neglected its infrastructure. It looks like there is something fundamentally wrong with the attitude towards its roads, not only considering the closed crumbling bridges, but also because of the terrible slow construction of most projects, funding issues and ghostly unused construction sites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Additionally the network, especially in densely inhabitated regions, is very poor.
Exactly. The traffic volume has especially rised in southern Germany.

Hesse has started a good congestion prevention system (e.g. reduction of congestion times by 80% from 2003 to 2011, source - but also effected by the economy crisis).

Bavaria has build a lot of Autobahns in the last decades and has a good network now. Well, A94 and B15n (former A93) are still fare away from completion and some Autobahns are very congested, but there is a network.

But Baden-Württemberg... No adequate Autobahn network, 2-laned roads with AADT >> 20,000 vehicles/day (also through roads), daily congestions, very slow planning progress, changing priorities, creating many expertises, reducing road standard, increasing ecological standards, very long construction times, NIMBYs, lead by green party since 2011,...

See press release "The future of road construction in Baden-Württemberg" (20th November 2013). The proposal list for the BVWP 2015 contains projects for 11.2 billion €. Baden-Württemberg gets 120 million € per year. That means it needs 93 years to build this projects! See briefing presentation.

What a mess!
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:10 PM   #5811
909
-
 
909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,418

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Funding is one important point but planning progress is another one. I've not yet read about plans (or even good ideas) to improve these procedures.
First of all, politicians should use taxes, tolls, and other fees levied on drivers also for infrastructure — not for other stuff. Decision makers in Berlin could also take some cues from the Verkehrsprojekte Deutsche Einheit, which helped building new infrastructure with relative ease between the eastern en western part of Germany. Furthermore they could take a look at their neighbors in the Netherlands, where the so-called Crisis and Recovery Act was adopted a couple of years ago. This law was meant to speed up decision-making, allowing important projects to be carried out, without any delay caused by legal procedures in court or elsewhere.
__________________
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player. That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. And then is heard no more: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
909 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:12 PM   #5812
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

I know. Good examples (ideas) but nothing happens!
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:20 PM   #5813
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,559
Likes (Received): 19352

What is quite notable is the large proportion of bridges that need immediate replacement, even to the point they face emergency closures for trucks. A45 in Hessen needs to replace 22 viaducts (Talbrücken) and several more in NRW needs replacement as well.

Besides the obvious replacement projects, there are also a large number of bridges with weight limitations. These may not seem so obvious for the average motorist, but these are a nightmare for truckers who face exceedingly long detours.

Overall Autobahn pavement quality is acceptable. There are frequently segments that would qualify as "mediocre" and some as "in need of replacement" (for example A7 north of Hannover, A61 north of Ludwigshafen or A1 north of Trier). They are actually working a lot on replacing worn-out pavement and modernizing road equipment (especially barriers in the median). Although works are slow, they are doing it on a large scale. The problem is, repaving does not cost that much, maybe 2 - 3 million per kilometer for a complete resurfacing project.

However, replacing bridges is much more costly, especially in the scale of river bridges and valley viaducts. These projects run in the billions combined, and postponing it will create more problems than postponing repavement work. Many bridges are now considered "beyond repair" and can only be replaced, some being less than 35 years old. This may have not been necessary if they adequately maintained it.

In terms of surface quality, local roads are much more problematic. Some state and district roads are in absolute disrepair, something we used to see in Romania or Ukraine. I've recently driven some local roads off A61 that were entirely destroyed. Some towns are surrounded by "Strassenschäden" signs.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

MichiH liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:59 PM   #5814
Attus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rheinbach
Posts: 2,762
Likes (Received): 1038

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What is quite notable is the large proportion of bridges that need immediate replacement, even to the point they face emergency closures for trucks.
Exactly.

Quote:
Overall Autobahn pavement quality is acceptable.
You know, I've come here from Hungary, and motorway pavement quality is much worse in Western Germany than in Hungary (secondary roads, however, are in very bad state in Hungary as well).

Quote:
They are actually working a lot on replacing worn-out pavement and modernizing road equipment (especially barriers in the median).
Last time I drove to Frankfurt I counted 11 Baustelle in this 170 km.
Attus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:52 AM   #5815
Isek
Registered User
 
Isek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 1226

According to the size of the country population and economical wise German infrastructure lacks far behind the Spanish, Italian, French or Dutch.
Isek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 11:14 AM   #5816
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In terms of surface quality, local roads are much more problematic. Some state and district roads are in absolute disrepair, something we used to see in Romania or Ukraine. I've recently driven some local roads off A61 that were entirely destroyed. Some towns are surrounded by "Strassenschäden" signs.
Well, the comparision with local roads in Romania or Ukraine is a little bit exaggerated but you are right. I think the number of big potholes is less in Germany.
I also know a lot of roads with very bad surface quality in southern and central Germany e.g. the B276 east of Gelnhausen (Hesse) with a reduction to 30kph. In addition there are a lot of bad roads in former GDR states. Improvements are in progress but slowly.
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 02:31 PM   #5817
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

A20 in Lower Saxony

The plans for the future A20 section b/n Westerstede (A28) and Jaderberg (A29) have been approved by the Federal Ministry of Transport (12.9km; 161 million €; OSM; project page). The documents for the plan approval procedure can be prepared now.

Source

About 12.5 million € per kilometer for a new Autobahn in plain country (but with 3 interchanges). I am pretty sure that the costs will even more increase massive.
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 06:27 PM   #5818
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,559
Likes (Received): 19352

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Well, the comparision with local roads in Romania or Ukraine is a little bit exaggerated but you are right. I think the number of big potholes is less in Germany.
Yep, from what I've seen the worst potholes are temporarily repaired with asphalt. (probably to avoid legal claims) But it results in roads like this:


L114 Wehr, RLP



L306, Bendorf, RLP
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 06:29 PM   #5819
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

Exactly. That's what I meant!
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #5820
XxlalixX
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 26
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post

Exactly. The traffic volume has especially rised in southern Germany.

Hesse has started a good congestion prevention system (e.g. reduction of congestion times by 80% from 2003 to 2011, source - but also effected by the economy crisis).

Bavaria has build a lot of Autobahns in the last decades and has a good network now. Well, A94 and B15n (former A93) are still fare away from completion and some Autobahns are very congested, but there is a network.

But Baden-Württemberg... No adequate Autobahn network, 2-laned roads with AADT >> 20,000 vehicles/day (also through roads), daily congestions, very slow planning progress, changing priorities, creating many expertises, reducing road standard, increasing ecological standards, very long construction times, NIMBYs, lead by green party since 2011,...

See press release "The future of road construction in Baden-Württemberg" (20th November 2013). The proposal list for the BVWP 2015 contains projects for 11.2 billion €. Baden-Württemberg gets 120 million € per year. That means it needs 93 years to build this projects! See briefing presentation.

What a mess!
In badenwürttemberg, its not so bad there, there are lots days were there is no traffic on most of the autobahns, my father works at stuttgart airport, he said that it is bad to drive at rusch hour, but thats only the one big city in badenwürtemberg...
From freiburg to frankfurt...thas autobahn is not bad at all...i have never seen much traffic there...
And the ones in eastern germany...those are bad, mainly becaus of the ddr...
XxlalixX no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autobahn, baustelle, congestion, germany, highways, marode brücken, motorways, stau

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium