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Old November 28th, 2013, 09:59 PM   #5861
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B29 Schwäbisch Gmünd

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The B29 bypass was opened today.



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Old November 28th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #5862
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Originally Posted by Autobahnftw View Post
Hi, im interested in old autobahn plans and i have found this map with shows autobahn network.

http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/P...arteOhneAS.pdf

what i wonder is, what is the grey road at bottom right which only have a question mark?
Source: http://www.autobahn-online.de/karten/76_16.jpg (http://www.autobahn-online.de/karten/ - Autobahn network plan 1976).
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Old November 29th, 2013, 09:36 AM   #5863
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EU should step in and ban all these foreign-only vignettes and toll schemes. I understand that Germans might feel wronged to have to pay vignettes in Austria whereas Austrians don't pay to drive in Germany. The solution is just to enforce reciprocity, the way drivers licenses must be accepted by member countries or that member countries cannot selectively ban cars from given counries just because they feel it.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 09:38 AM   #5864
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I have a question: what is the current status of B-50 and Höschemoselbrück projects? It's been several months since I last read something about it.,
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Old November 29th, 2013, 10:11 AM   #5865
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Hey, hey, stop, please. No need for speaking bullcraps here.
Politicians speak about "toll for foreigners" but actually no one will introduce a toll that has to be paid by foreigners only. No one. All of German politicians know the EU regulations very well.
In the new governmental treaty (Koalitionsvertrag) there are three conditions for toll:
1., It must fit all EU regulations (which means it can't be introduced for foreigners only, and it must have at least two options, one for daily users and one for casual users).
2., German car owners must get some equalization so that they (we, as I'm a German tax payer) must not pay more than before.
3., As a final financial result it must get more income than costs (which is hardly possible if it is only paid by foreigners).

The idea of Bavarian party CSU was this: the toll will be the same for all cars, being registered in Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, Papua-New Guinea or Kenya (expected to be 100€ for a year or 10€ for ten days). Simultanously German road tax will be lowered by the same sum.
The problem is the party officials all use large cars that have a yearly tax of more than 100 euro, but there are many small cars that pay less. E.g. for my 12 years old Opel Corsa road tax is 85 euro / year, but for a brand new hybrid Toyota Yaris it is only 20 euro so that it can't be lowered by 100 euro.
So it can't work this way. Now no one has any idea about how to do it.

I myself think that both CDU and SPD (the other two participating parties of the new government) know that it will not work, there's no way to introduce it, but they let CSU to fight for it - and fail as the end.
But we'll see.
About one thing I'm sure: chancellor Merkel will never sign a law that is clearly against EU regulations. Seehofer from Bavaria can say what he wants as long as he has no responsibility. But Merkel is not an idiot.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 11:12 AM   #5866
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Was Switzerland excused from the EU legislation on this front? Does anyone know that? I know they're not an EU member, but they usually have to follow all the rules. So is the Swiss vignette a foreigners-only toll or does it adhere to a complicated refund for residents through road tax compensation (like Attus described two posts above mine)?

Anyway, sounds like a complicated system... Of all toll systems, if you have to have a toll system, the French probably works best. I know you have to construct all those ghastly gates at every entrance and exit, but at least it's consistent and fair.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 02:40 PM   #5867
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Switzerland doesn't have to follow "the rules" usually. It mainly applies on trade, but not even close to all EU legislation. E.g. Switzerland doesn't participate on all 4 freedoms or the principle of non-discrimination based on nationality.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 03:02 PM   #5868
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Quote:
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And it's not just Austria but also the Netherlands, who have said the very same.
It just doesn't sound so hypocritical when the Dutch complain.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #5869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
EU should step in and ban all these foreign-only vignettes and toll schemes. I understand that Germans might feel wronged to have to pay vignettes in Austria whereas Austrians don't pay to drive in Germany. The solution is just to enforce reciprocity, the way drivers licenses must be accepted by member countries or that member countries cannot selectively ban cars from given counries just because they feel it.
But it is somehow fair, or not?

Germans does not pay in Germany as well as Austrians do not.
Germans pay in Austria as well as Austrians do.

What is unfair? I think German should charge their motorways (in my opinion one of the best on the World), but equally for everyone.

This inequitable prices for toll are just one step towards inequitable prices e.g. for groceries.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:42 PM   #5870
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't think there's the need to insult.
You are right. Was totally unnecessary and I apologize. However this does not change my stance towards the German intention to introduce a toll solely for foreigners.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #5871
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The tolls are just vengeance. However, € 10 for 10 days is reasonable if they really must introduce a vignette.

I have my doubts it will raise any significant revenue. If they go for the € 10/10days and € 100/year prices, few foreigners will buy the € 100 vignette, unless they plan to drive through Germany at at least 10 separate occassions.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #5872
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
It just doesn't sound so hypocritical when the Dutch complain.
And where's the hypocrisies from the Austrian side? One could only come to that conclusion, when not thinking it through.

BTW: If the ECJ should come to the conclusion that this is in line with the fundamental principles, it sets a dangerous precedent, how these principles could become content-free. There are already voices in Austria calling for such a regulation for students as well. Charge a rather high tuition fee and provide the Austrian students with student support in the same amount. This is not even remotely compatible with what the European spirit should be.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:51 PM   #5873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The tolls are just vengeance. However, € 10 for 10 days is reasonable if they really must introduce a vignette.

I have my doubts it will raise any significant revenue. If they go for the € 10/10days and € 100/year prices, few foreigners will buy the € 100 vignette, unless they plan to drive through Germany at at least 10 separate occassions.
ADAC claims it will cost Germany more than it would generate and they are willing to support Austria and the Netherlands if this should end up at the ECJ.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:58 PM   #5874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
And where's the hypocrisies from the Austrian side? One could only come to that conclusion, when not thinking it through.

BTW: If the ECJ should come to the conclusion that this is in line with the fundamental principles, it sets a dangerous precedent, how these principles could become content-free. There are already voices in Austria calling for such a regulation for students as well. Charge a rather high tuition fee and provide the Austrian students with student support in the same amount. This is not even remotely compatible with what the European spirit should be.
Well, I.... agree. European Union is in huge crisis. I was talking to different people from Europe, and everyone is losing the trust towards EU.

If Germany really do what they intend to do, it might be the very dangerous precedence. The whole EU might brake up back to different "nation" states and... I don't know as you, but I really enjoy living in peace I don't want to lose.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:05 PM   #5875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The tolls are just vengeance. However, € 10 for 10 days is reasonable if they really must introduce a vignette.

I have my doubts it will raise any significant revenue. If they go for the € 10/10days and € 100/year prices, few foreigners will buy the € 100 vignette, unless they plan to drive through Germany at at least 10 separate occassions.
There won't be any 10-day-stickers. It wouldn't make sense to offer such a loop hole if you aim to make foreigners pay, would it.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:22 PM   #5876
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Germans does not pay in Germany as well as Austrians do not.
Germans pay in Austria as well as Austrians do.
Austria overcharges foreigners with their short term toll stickers (yes, everybody pays and if an Austrian wants to but a 10 day sticker he'll pay the same price as anyone else but we all know the idea behind it). I can understand some people getting pissed off but hearing complaints from countries that have been using similar schemes for years is just heartwarming.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #5877
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
If Germany really do what they intend to do, it might be the very dangerous precedence. The whole EU might brake up back to different "nation" states and... I don't know as you, but I really enjoy living in peace I don't want to lose.
None of my business (and veering off-topic), but surely it's possible to have peace without the EU....
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:27 PM   #5878
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I have my doubts it will raise any significant revenue.
Of course it won't. What do you think why did Merkel written in the new coalition treaty that the toll must have ANY revenue over the costs? :-)
For CSU it would be OK even if it caused some losses. It is absolutely not about revenues. It's 100% populism: "We'll show those Austrian morons that they can not use our mighty A8 for free!".
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:30 PM   #5879
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This is not even remotely compatible with what the European spirit should be.
Correct. And what? No one is interested in "European spirit".
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:45 PM   #5880
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ADAC claims it will cost Germany more than it would generate (...)
Well, it's the ADAC. The bullshit can't be ridiculous enough for them not to claim it if they could use it to argue against rising costs for motorists.
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