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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:59 PM   #5881
Festin
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Wouldn't it just be easier to put some extra tax on the fuel? This way roads that are being used most will also get payed most.

Getting 10-days vignette is just stupid, for people just driving through it would be better to have 1 day vignette.

But by all countries in EU I think germany is the best on. They dont have tolls like the scandinavians, you dont need to buy vignette and you dont "putarinas", road tolls where you need to wait in line to pay for the autobahn.
Worst thing ever created...
Neither do they have ridicules speed limits..

And if any country have the right to charge you for driving on the autobahn, it is germany.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:59 PM   #5882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
Austria overcharges foreigners with their short term toll stickers (yes, everybody pays and if an Austrian wants to but a 10 day sticker he'll pay the same price as anyone else but we all know the idea behind it). I can understand some people getting pissed off but hearing complaints from countries that have been using similar schemes for years is just heartwarming.
Of course we overcharge with the € 8,30 for a 10 day vignette. What an outrage!

To put it into perspective:

Brenner - Trento (138 km) € 10.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #5883
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Originally Posted by thun View Post
Well, it's the ADAC. The bullshit can't be ridiculous enough for them not to claim it if they could use it to argue against rising costs for motorists.
Which just highlights the apparent lie that such a toll would not be an extra financial burden for German motorists. Of course it would since you can't lower the road tax by the toll amount. If you do this, you'll end up generating less revenues as a state, since not everybody is going to buy the stickers (Just think about families with two or more cars. They all pay road tax, but most definitely not all cars will be equipped with a vignette.). And as I understand it, under German law, it is not allowed to grant a tax credit only for those buying the vignette.

So in order to not come up short in revenues, the toll amount would have to be higher than the tax break on the road tax.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #5884
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Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Of course we overcharge with the € 8,30 for a 10 day vignette. What an outrage!
Most foreigners who cross the country once a year have to fork over an annualized price of €310 while 1 year users (i.e. most likely Austrians) only have to pay €82.50. Hardly fair.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 09:03 PM   #5885
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
None of my business (and veering off-topic), but surely it's possible to have peace without the EU....
I agree, but not on the way towards nationalism, protectionism and discrimination. It would lead only to more and more conflicts. As I've told before. Germany has the right to charge their motorways, no doubt about it - they have perhaps the great motorway network in the world, either in terms of condition or accessibility. But you just can't charge any service according to the residence of customer.

I still hope, this decision is based only on populism of some stupid politicians.

Btw. in many countries, foreigners' (and eventually occasional) trips are charged by disadvantageous price in short period. (e.g. weekly sticker is far expensive than annual if we re-calculate it to price per day). E.g. in

Austria:
10-day sticker = 8,30 € (0,83 €/day)
annual sticker = 80,60 € (0,22 €/day).

Hungary
weekly payment = 10,61 € (1,51 €/day)
annual payment = 153,23 € (0,41 €/day)

Slovenia
weekly sticker = 15 € (2,14 € /day)
annual sticker = 95 € (0,26 € /day)

Slovakia
10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
annual sticker = 50 € (0,13 € / day)

Czech republic
10-day sticker = 11,9 € (1,19 € /day)
annual sticker = 57,7 € (0,15 € / day)

Germany (proposed)
10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
annual sticker = 100 € (0,27 € /day)

According to my experiences (due to commuting, regular business trips, etc.) domestic drivers always purchase the annual stickers (which are several times cheaper per day) whereas foreign drivers (mostly transit) choose the short-period stickers, which are expensive per day.
Germany has really quality motorway network, the 10-day sticker could undoubtedly costs at least 25 € (2,5 € a day). The effect would be the same, it would not be discriminative at all and the whole implementation would be cheaper because of simplicity. IMHO much better solution.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 10:05 PM   #5886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a question: what is the current status of B-50 and Höschemoselbrück projects? It's been several months since I last read something about it.,
Hochmoselbrücke . No news b/c it is a common German construction. The viaduct will be u/c until 2016 (or even later).
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Old November 29th, 2013, 10:29 PM   #5887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I agree, but not on the way towards nationalism, protectionism and discrimination. It would lead only to more and more conflicts. As I've told before. Germany has the right to charge their motorways, no doubt about it - they have perhaps the great motorway network in the world, either in terms of condition or accessibility. But you just can't charge any service according to the residence of customer.

I still hope, this decision is based only on populism of some stupid politicians.

Btw. in many countries, foreigners' (and eventually occasional) trips are charged by disadvantageous price in short period. (e.g. weekly sticker is far expensive than annual if we re-calculate it to price per day). E.g. in

Austria:
10-day sticker = 8,30 € (0,83 €/day)
annual sticker = 80,60 € (0,22 €/day).

Hungary
weekly payment = 10,61 € (1,51 €/day)
annual payment = 153,23 € (0,41 €/day)

Slovenia
weekly sticker = 15 € (2,14 € /day)
annual sticker = 95 € (0,26 € /day)

Slovakia
10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
annual sticker = 50 € (0,13 € / day)

Czech republic
10-day sticker = 11,9 € (1,19 € /day)
annual sticker = 57,7 € (0,15 € / day)

Germany (proposed)
10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
annual sticker = 100 € (0,27 € /day)

According to my experiences (due to commuting, regular business trips, etc.) domestic drivers always purchase the annual stickers (which are several times cheaper per day) whereas foreign drivers (mostly transit) choose the short-period stickers, which are expensive per day.
Germany has really quality motorway network, the 10-day sticker could undoubtedly costs at least 25 € (2,5 € a day). The effect would be the same, it would not be discriminative at all and the whole implementation would be cheaper because of simplicity. IMHO much better solution.
It is a joke all of it. You will end up putting vignettes on the windows that you cant see the road...


Is not the most simple thing to do, like Hungary? Register on their server and you do not need any vignette. I think you also can do it from home.


If germany decides for the vignette system, they must make a special transit one.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #5888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Festin View Post
It is a joke all of it. You will end up putting vignettes on the windows that you cant see the road...


Is not the most simple thing to do, like Hungary? Register on their server and you do not need any vignette. I think you also can do it from home.


If germany decides for the vignette system, they must make a special transit one.
Okay, I am sorry for writing sticker in my post, but let's talk about e-vignette or whatever electronic system.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 10:45 PM   #5889
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For those interested, a special newspaper has been released regarding the 2x2 widening of the E233 between Meppen (A31) and Cloppenburg (A1) in Lower Saxony, close to the Dutch border. The paper is written in both German and Dutch and is available in PDF format. In addition to it, there is also a flyer available in both German and Dutch.
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Old November 30th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #5890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
Most foreigners who cross the country once a year have to fork over an annualized price of €310 while 1 year users (i.e. most likely Austrians) only have to pay €82.50. Hardly fair.
That is hardly an argument, because if that would be discrimination (we already learned in this thread that Austria is among the cheapest in all of Europe) any form of price reduction for long term tickets would be discrimination. How come, I as an Austrian can't get the weekly pass - for let's say MVG - on the same daily rate as the annual pass? Tourists are more likely to be affected by that. It would never occur to me that I am somewhat treated in a bad way because of that.

Probably you need to face the fact that the popular German myth of evil Austrians ripping off poor German tourists is simply not true.
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Old November 30th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #5891
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There are a lot of complaints of people having to pay extra tolls at for example Brenner, Arlberg and Tauern not only by Germans but also Italians. Right, G. ?
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Old November 30th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #5892
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Well, yes, but there is a general reason: people love to complain
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Old November 30th, 2013, 11:33 AM   #5893
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
There are a lot of complaints of people having to pay extra tolls at for example Brenner, Arlberg and Tauern not only by Germans but also Italians. Right, G. ?
Am I G.?
Last time I drove the Arlbergtunnel I had to pay twice - there was so much wind a 5 euro bill just got stripped from my hand and flew over the motorway. Had it been a 10, I would have set off in pursuit.
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Old November 30th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #5894
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- 2nd December: B15n AS Neufahrn to AS Ergoldsbach (4-laned)
- 4th December: B179 Königs Wusterhausen bypass (2nd stage; 3.8km; plan approval order: September 2009; groundbreaking: April 2010; 10 million €; project page; OSM)

- 13th December: B101 Luckenwalde bypass

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The last section of the B101 Luckenwalde bypass will be opened on 13th December 2013 (circa 5.5km; OSM). Another part of the southern bypass was already opened in August 2012 (3.3km; OSM). The total costs for both southern sections are 20 million €. The plan approval order was passed in July 2009. The construction was started in September 2010. The B101 features 1x2 lanes with a partial third lane.
- 16th December: B96 Bautzen bypass (2nd stage; 4.4km; groundbreaking: May 2010; 32 million € (stage 1+2); project page; OSM)

- 20th December: B178 AS Obercunnersdorf to AS Niederoderwitz

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The construction of section 3.2 started directly subsequent to section 3.1 completion (OSM). It is announced to be finished in late 2013, probably in October 2013. This 3-laned section has a length of 10.2km and ends at AS Niederoderwitz (S128).
The B486 Offenthal bypass (OSM), B58 Büderich bypass (OSM), B32 Bad Saulgau bypass (3rd stage; OSM) and the B57 Baesweiler bypass (2nd stage; OSM) are also announced to be opened in December 2013. In addition some projects were announced to be completed in late 2013 but they are probably postponed.
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Old December 1st, 2013, 05:19 AM   #5895
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With motorway vingettes won't lots of people simply shunpike and use normal roads or would all cars have to have one?
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Old December 1st, 2013, 05:27 AM   #5896
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With motorway vingettes won't lots of people simply shunpike and use normal roads or would all cars have to have one?
For residents, it would make no sense to forego a vignette and then use only local roads.

For visitors, maybe those driving short sectors near borders might use local roads, for anyone driving cross-country the € 10 is worth more than time that would be lost on local roads, like crossing the Rhürghbeit on city streets
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Old December 1st, 2013, 11:03 AM   #5897
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For residents, it would make no sense to forego a vignette and then use only local roads.
I don't agree. There are a lot of regions in Germany far away from Autobahns. I know some people (especially women) who don't drive on Autobahns at all. Many people use their car only for short distances (<=30km). Especially families with more than one car would use a vignette only for one car (but not for the wife's shopping car). That means the toll revenue would be less than expected and if these people once anyhow have to drive a longer distance they would avoid the Autobahn because they have no vignette.

I think Germany will not launch a car toll within the next 4 years but the truck toll for B roads which is also part of the preliminary coalition agreement will be a much better way to increase the toll revenue (~2.3 billion €/year). I hope it will be directly used for road infrastructure.
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Old December 1st, 2013, 11:11 AM   #5898
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I read somewhere that (then) West Germany had a plan to put every village or town within maximum 40km distance of the nearest Autobahn in the 1980s, but after reunification money had to be used to bring Eastern German roads up to par.
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Old December 1st, 2013, 11:26 AM   #5899
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i think germany is close to that goal already, since the farthermost town nowadays from an autoban exit is salzwedel (in sachsen-anhalt) with "only" 60 kilometers.
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Old December 1st, 2013, 01:40 PM   #5900
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Preliminary coalition agreement: http://www.spd.de/linkableblob/11279...onsvertrag.pdf. The SPD members have to agree. They can vote until 12th December.

Quote:
Page 9: Diesem Ziel dient auch eine Ausweitung der LKW-Maut sowie eine europarechtskonforme PKW-Maut, mit der wir Halter von nicht in Deutschland zugelassenen PKW an der Finanzierung zusätzlicher Ausgaben für das Autobahnnetz beteiligen wollen, ohne im Inland zugelassene Fahrzeuge höher als heute zu belasten... Page 40/41: Die bestehende LKW-Maut wird auf alle Bundesstraßen ausgeweitet. Die LKW-Maut wird – unter Berücksichtigung der Ergebnisse des neuen Wegekostengutachtens – weiter entwickelt. Orientierungspunkte hierbei können sein: die Tonnage, das Netz, externe Kosten. Wir stellen sicher, dass die Netto-Einnahmen aus der Nutzerfinanzierung ohne Abstriche in die Verkehrsinfrastruktur investiert werden. Zur zusätzlichen Finanzierung des Erhalts und des Ausbaus unseres Autobahnnetzes werden wir einen angemessenen Beitrag der Halter von nicht in Deutschland zugelassenen PKW erheben (Vignette) mit der Maßgabe, dass kein Fahrzeughalter in Deutschland stärker belastet wird als heute. Die Ausgestaltung wird EU-rechtskonform erfolgen. Ein entsprechendes Gesetz soll im Verlauf des Jahres 2014 verabschiedet werden...
Quote:
Page 9: This goal is also an extension of the truck toll and a car toll which is compliant with European law. We want to participate vehicle owners of not registered in Germany car to the financing of the additional investments on the autobahn network, without burdening domestically registered vehicles higher than today... Page 40/41: The existing truck toll will be extended to all federal roads (B roads). The truck toll will be further developed in consideration of the results of the new infrastructure costs expertise. Points of reference in this case may be: the tonnage, the network, external costs. We make sure that the user financed net revenue will be invested without compromising in transport infrastructure. For additional funding for the preservation and expansion of our Autobahn network the vehicle owners of not registered in Germany cars will be adequate contributed (vignette) with the proviso that no vehicle owner in Germany is more charged than today. The definition will be carried out compliant to EU law. A corresponding law shall be adopted during the year 2014 ...
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