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Old December 1st, 2013, 08:50 PM   #5901
Corvinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Festin View Post
Wouldn't it just be easier to put some extra tax on the fuel? This way roads that are being used most will also get payed most.
This extra tax on fuel already exists. It was introduced by Schröder's Red-Green government back in the early 2000's under the name of Ökosteuer ("eco-tax"). Since then, gas in Germany is permanently more expensive than e.g. in Austria.
Of course, extra revenue from the Ökosteuer does not go to road infrastructure funding, but -among others- into state pension funds. The idea behind it (according to the responsibles) is to encourage fuel economy on the one side, and prevent rises in social charges on wages (= in the cost of labour force) on the other side. They call this an "ecological steering effect", thereby justifying its name.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 01:33 AM   #5902
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Wouldn't it just be easier to put some extra tax on the fuel?
No. Austrians can drive through Bavaria without refilling the tank. Czech and Swiss drivers may take trips in Bavaria, too, without filling up. And the main (I mean: the only one) reason for toll is to let these foreigners pay for Bavarian motorways.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 01:38 AM   #5903
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Can we go back a step for someone who hasn't been paying attention closely (and who's unlikely to be personally affected by this any time soon), but who's now seeing this argument on two national threads? Is this a Bavarian (politician's) idea to only toll Autobahnen in Bavaria, a Bavarian politician's idea to toll all Autobahnen in the country, or....
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 03:16 AM   #5904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Can we go back a step for someone who hasn't been paying attention closely (and who's unlikely to be personally affected by this any time soon), but who's now seeing this argument on two national threads? Is this a Bavarian (politician's) idea to only toll Autobahnen in Bavaria, a Bavarian politician's idea to toll all Autobahnen in the country, or....
There is a proposal discussed to toll the entire motorway network in Germany by the issue of vignettes. It is popular to some extent all over the country but probably nowhere near as popular as in Bavaria as it seems. It has been put on the agenda earlier this year again by a regional party which rules in Bavaria. This party feels vindicated by electoral success in September as it was one of the main issues of their campaign. So they keep pushing it further.

However, this party represent a mere 6.5% in parliament. Their designated coalition partners are rather reluctant on the issue and it is nowhere near a done deal. The coalition treaty which has been negotiated in recent weeks contains a clause that the possibility of a motorway toll for cars will be explored. It is a vague phrasing which leaves a lot room for interpretation and political manoeuvre.

On one hand there is no majority in sight which is in favour of the toll. It could, however, be pushed through nonetheless as a concession in a bigger political deal.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 03:41 AM   #5905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
No. Austrians can drive through Bavaria without refilling the tank. Czech and Swiss drivers may take trips in Bavaria, too, without filling up. And the main (I mean: the only one) reason for toll is to let these foreigners pay for Bavarian motorways.
I have a wonderful solution: let's put a giant tolling station here. Bavarians can then ask every possible price for using A8 from Salburg to anywhere, squeezing money from those bloody Austrians and without harrasing all other Germans and guests
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 10:38 AM   #5906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Can we go back a step for someone who hasn't been paying attention closely (and who's unlikely to be personally affected by this any time soon), but who's now seeing this argument on two national threads? Is this a Bavarian (politician's) idea to only toll Autobahnen in Bavaria, a Bavarian politician's idea to toll all Autobahnen in the country, or....
Basic information: imagine the U.S. having a Republican Party only in 48 states, and having a let's say Party of Republic in the remaining 2 states. These two parties are on the same ideological base, they work together in the Congress and the Senate but they're two different parties, both having it's own organizations, etc.
In Germany CDU (Christian Democratic Union, in 15 of 16 federal states) and CSU (Christian Socialist Union, only in Bavaria) work like this.
The "toll for foreigners" is the idea of CSU. Basically they mean the motorways in Bavaria (as they are not present outside Bavaria at all), but they know that it would be crazy to introduce a toll only in one state, and not in whole Germany.
In the last elections CSU got 49% in Bavaria (and they did not compete outside Bavaria) which means approximately 8% in all-German level. So in the current German political situation a government without CSU is hardly conceivable. And CSU leader Horst Seehofer declared that his party will never participate in a government that does not introduce toll for foreigners.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 01:26 PM   #5907
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I have a wonderful solution: let's put a giant tolling station here. Bavarians can then ask every possible price for using A8 from Salburg to anywhere, squeezing money from those bloody Austrians and without harrasing all other Germans and guests
A far better place for toll booths would be right next to the border. This stretch is de-facto tolled anyway because the Austrian tolling area extends well over the border to the first junction in Germany, a rather dubious practice which should have been legally challenged long ago.
There are several advantages to place toll booths exactly there. First, it wouldn't bother intra-German traffic and second the most convenient route for toll evading traffic doesn't run through towns on the German side of the border and still rather long. So charging car drivers €2 on this stretch of motorway would be a fairly rewarding for the treasury and totally annoying for border crossing traffic.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 03:00 PM   #5908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Okay, I am sorry for writing sticker in my post, but let's talk about e-vignette or whatever electronic system.
Forget about it. Anyone even hinting at an electronic system that can be used to trace movements is committing immediate political suicide. No German politician is dumb enough to ice his carreer over the complains of people who aren't eligible to vote for or against him.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:28 PM   #5909
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Forget about it. Anyone even hinting at an electronic system that can be used to trace movements is committing immediate political suicide. No German politician is dumb enough to ice his carreer over the complains of people who aren't eligible to vote for or against him.
That is true. You can peacefully remove the "German" from the last sentence. You will get the axiom of politicians all over the world.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 06:06 PM   #5910
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I'm not so sure about that. The Brits are among the most surveillanced people in the western world, and either they don't know about it, or they just don't care.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 08:55 PM   #5911
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Basically they mean the motorways in Bavaria (as they are not present outside Bavaria at all), but they know that it would be crazy to introduce a toll only in one state, and not in whole Germany.
That wouldn't be "crazy", it would be impossible as all autobahnen are in federal responsibility. Unlike the US, where the states did build motorways on their own budget and have the authority to toll them.

(Btw. Switzerland does have a very similar system to the US: there are motorways buildt by some cantons as well as the Federation, I think on some of them (e.g. around Zurich) you need a vignette whereas in the Basel area you don't.)
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 09:22 PM   #5912
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B15n Regensburg-Landshut

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- 2nd December: B15n AS Neufahrn to AS Ergoldsbach (4-laned)
The B15n section from AS Neufahrn to AS Ergoldsbach was opened for traffic today (7.2km; groundbreaking August 2009; 62.5 million €; 2x2 with hard shoulders; OSM). There are about 30km under service now. The total costs are 222 million €. See press release.

The road has Autobahn standard but it will not be tolled for cars b/c the current discussion to introduce a car toll is only for "real" (blue) Autobahns. Trucks have to pay toll for the B15n anyway.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 09:26 PM   #5913
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I have to add that the B15n is in Bavaria .
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 09:57 PM   #5914
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Toll for ALL foreign cars (and just foreign cars) as a revenge because in A, CZ and CH they have a sticker toll for motorways...

Politicians always promoting hate...

What's next? That countries or regions with free motorways (i.e. Finland, Belgium, Netherlands, most of Spain, Britanny area of France, etc etc..) charge a toll ONLY to bavarian cars because of this ?
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:53 AM   #5915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
That is true. You can peacefully remove the "German" from the last sentence. You will get the axiom of politicians all over the world.
True.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:57 AM   #5916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAkumana View Post
[...]

What's next? That countries or regions with free motorways (i.e. Finland, Belgium, Netherlands, most of Spain, Britanny area of France, etc etc..) charge a toll ONLY to bavarian cars because of this ?

That´s actually a good idea...
Fortunately these mean Bavarians are easily recognizable by their white-blue Bavaria stickers!

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Old December 3rd, 2013, 10:12 AM   #5917
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That'll be confusing, as all Sixt rental cars have Munich registered plates, and they're scattered all over Germany and indeed Europe.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 10:57 AM   #5918
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I bet that Autobahn vignette talk started at a stammtisch near the Seehofer residence while there were vacations in Holland and the "Gelbe Gefahr" was on their slow motion treck through Bayern, doubling our commuting times in the process.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 11:09 AM   #5919
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I wouldn't be so sure. These German sightseeing drivers have become a right menace in both Holland and Austria. The Dutch aren't as half as slow as these Germans. The Dutch also generally keep better lane discipline than both the Germans and Austrians.

Time to get rid of that ancient das gelbe Gefahr myth. The Germans have taken over: D - Dumme Fahrer.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 12:12 PM   #5920
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I wouldn't be so sure. These German sightseeing drivers have become a right menace in both Holland and Austria. The Dutch aren't as half as slow as these Germans. The Dutch also generally keep better lane discipline than both the Germans and Austrians.

Time to get rid of that ancient das gelbe Gefahr myth. The Germans have taken over: D - Dumme Fahrer.
Hey, I'm the first to admit that the vast majority of German drivers shouldn't be driving It's just, here in Bavaria they are only on the road at certain times (= Sunday afternoon) while down in Tirol you probably get them in bulk and at all times. Your fault for living in such a nice and attractive retirement place :P

Of course, the "Gelbe Gefahr" is not entirely accurate. I've seen plenty of Dutch drive just fine and for every annoying one (who usually are Turks with a Dutch plate anyways...) there's also an equally annoying Belgian or Dane. And yeah, it's my own fault for living along the A 3, the major arthery for vacation traffic to South Eastern Europe, I know
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