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Old July 8th, 2014, 04:10 AM   #6601
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Will they at least make possible to use just one sticker for both vignette and umweltplakette?

Speaking of the latter, from 2015 onward only green sticker cars will be allowed on the controlled zones, why not abolish the sticker requirement for cars manufactured to Euro-5 standards from it?
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Old July 8th, 2014, 04:14 AM   #6602
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Before reunification in 1989, did they plan to extend A-395 further south to Braunlage?
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Old July 8th, 2014, 08:59 AM   #6603
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Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
I work in cross border business btw

I don't believe the vignette will come as it is. It is as if you were demanding an entrance fee to enter Germany. This is, as I see it, clearly against the spirit of the EU in general, especially against the principal of free movement of people in the Schengen area. We have just torn down border barriers, now they want to build a fiscal barrier? I don't believe so.

The first reactions are - well are there any at all? SPD's secretary general was very reluctant ("not convinced") no other politician - let alone ministers - have reacted by now, have they?
On the other side, the idea is not that much different from the tolled motorways, especially when the tolls begin at the border....

At the present situation all foreigners get a "free lunch" driving through Germany and as there is no alternative to it for most of the international traffic, I guess it will see the daylight. Not that I would like it .

The devil is in the details though. Simply introducing new reduced taxes at the same time as a e-sticker would be less hassle and simple. A tax return would have been an organizational overkill.

Last edited by Surel; July 8th, 2014 at 09:09 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:13 AM   #6604
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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
it will be interesting how EU will react.

not to forget, EU forced Slovenia in 2008 to introduce cheaper short-term vignette because of the "discrimination of foreign drivers". at that time, there was half year vignette for 35€, and year vignette for 55€. and that was for ALL drivers, regardless of nationality.
EU can't do a thing. It would have to ban stickers in CZ, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania, etc... first.

It is exactly the same, just that e.g. there is no road tax in CZ and SK for private owners and the stickers don´t differ in price based on cars' engines etc.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:54 AM   #6605
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Will they at least make possible to use just one sticker for both vignette and umweltplakette?

I wouldn’t count on that. We are Germans, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
On the other side, the idea is not that much different from the tolled motorways, especially when the tolls begin at the border....

The devil in the detail, as you name it.
If you have a toll only for motorways, you are free to use other roads.
Craving a toll for all roads is like craving an entrance fee.

Example: The company I work for is a supplier to border shops at the German-Danish border. Many Danish people come to Germany to buy cheaper than at home. The shops are no more than 2 km away from the border and there is no need to use a motorway.
A road toll for all roads will require all those customers to pay extra money in order to come. Plus the organizational hassle. I think Chris has stated it right, cross border business may be much affected.
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The devil is in the details though. Simply introducing new reduced taxes at the same time as a e-sticker would be less hassle and simple. A tax return would have been an organizational overkill.

Don’t you dare! A e-sticker will be suspected for a hidden tracking tool from the NSA. Those road toll bridges are already over the top.
Germans are veeeery paranoid currently. They are so afraid that someone may know where they have been.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 10:26 AM   #6606
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There is a e-vignette for all main roads in Romania already several years. The complete road network is a bit extreme indeed. E-vignette works also in Hungary.

By e-sticker/e-vignette I meant the same system that is used in Hungary and Romania. You just get a receipt when you pay (almost anywhere with internet thus ) and the system matches that with your registration number, you paid toll for a given time period. Random or constant camera matching checks the registration numbers and whether they have paid. In my eyes it is the best vignette system.

I don't know about the paranoia but if you put a sticker on the windshield you need to check that it is there and that it is valid as well. And the speed traps make pictures of your registration and match it with your address now already. I don't see any advantages of the sticker. With e-sticker I don't mean per km tracking system like with LKW. Overall I am not in favor of km based toll systems for private personal cars. It is better to link the costs to luxury or income (i.e. engine and weight proxy).

You could easily set up vignette free areas around the border if it would be needed.


Anyway, if it will be sticker will we see this in Germany ?


Or perhaps the German police will check only the cars with the foreign plates if they have the sticker . Now we are talking .
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Old July 8th, 2014, 10:30 AM   #6607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It could be A40 in Essen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I think it is the A40 at Essen actually. It's the only motorway in Germany I know with a railtrack in the middle. And also judging by the numberplates...


There it is:
https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=51....269.13,,0,6.71

And, pretty incredibly, there's even Street View...
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Old July 8th, 2014, 12:19 PM   #6608
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Sticker nightmare

If Germany introduces this silly old school sticker idea we are gonna have a sticker nightmare when crossing borders in Europe.

Danish politicians have allready declared that if Germany introduces such a sticker system, then we will do a similar one, and I am sure Danish politicians are not the only ones having that idea.

That means we will end up with wind screens full of various colored stickers, one for each country (why not one for every town or region we are crossing).

If politicians really think we are not paying enough for road use, then either introduce a euro-wide sticker system, where the income is split according to a pre-defined rules, or may be even better a euro-wide system for electronic road user tax.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 01:59 PM   #6609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
If Germany introduces this silly old school sticker idea we are gonna have a sticker nightmare when crossing borders in Europe.

Danish politicians have allready declared that if Germany introduces such a sticker system, then we will do a similar one, and I am sure Danish politicians are not the only ones having that idea.

That means we will end up with wind screens full of various colored stickers, one for each country (why not one for every town or region we are crossing).

If politicians really think we are not paying enough for road use, then either introduce a euro-wide sticker system, where the income is split according to a pre-defined rules, or may be even better a euro-wide system for electronic road user tax.
It is actually against the idea of EU. Instead of developing and introducing EU-wide system, we would sulky introduce local systems
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:04 PM   #6610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post


By e-sticker/e-vignette I meant the same system that is used in Hungary and Romania. You just get a receipt when you pay (almost anywhere with internet thus ) and the system matches that with your registration number, you paid toll for a given time period. Random or constant camera matching checks the registration numbers and whether they have paid. In my eyes it is the best vignette system.
Yes, I think I know what you mean.

The point is the cameras. Your number plate will be registered and the system will check if you have paid the toll or not. BUT: your number plate will of course be registered at various places and the system *can* create a so-called "movement profile" by registering at what time you have been at which place. German people fear to be surveilled like this, think they mostly fear to be falsely suspected a terrorist

I don't think they will exempt certain border areas from the toll, because they mainly want to crave money from foreigners.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:11 PM   #6611
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Vignette system is good for small territories (Switzerland, Slovenia, Czech Rep...). When the area is large - and so is the motorway system - the price would need to be too high...

Is Germany going to introduce the vignette for sure or is it just an idea?
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:16 PM   #6612
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
It is actually against the idea of EU. Instead of developing and introducing EU-wide system, we would sulky introduce local systems
As I said, it is even against the spirit of the EU and particulary against the free movement of people principle.

But the zeitgeist in the EU is like back to nationalism - as the EU parliament elections clearly stated - and of course the CSU party is even less than a national party, it is even only a regional party and has of course only the advantage of the Bavarians in mind.

I totally agree with you, now that we have gotten this far, it is time for a European road toll system. Maybe this will be the way, Merkel is going to wind herself out of her dilemma: on the one hand, she has promised that there will be no car toll, on the other hand, she has to fulfil the coalition contract. Referring the topic to EU level could be a solution for everyone to save their face (which often seems to be more important than a reasonable solution).
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Last edited by Heico-M; July 10th, 2014 at 09:26 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:17 PM   #6613
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Vignette system is good for small territories (Switzerland, Slovenia, Czech Rep...). When the area is large - and so is the motorway system - the price would need to be too high...

Is Germany going to introduce the vignette for sure or is it just an idea?
Until now, it is just a concept. Nothing has been decided.
And I don't see the concept passing through.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:40 PM   #6614
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There are also some "problems" to solve: Germany is decentralized state and the roads are in different financial responsibility: Autobahnen (motorways) and Bundesstraßen (Federal roads) are paid and maintained by the Bund (Germany as whole), Landesstraßen (state roads) and Bezirksstraßen are paid and maintained by the corresponding state, e.g. Bavaria or Saxony and then there also district roads and communal roads. So, the federal government and parliament in Berlin can't decide a law that you have to pay for using roads outside of their responsibility. That's a big problem I doubt that it could and would be solved soon. So the only fast possible way to introduce a toll system is for Autobahnen and Bundesstraßen.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:59 PM   #6615
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You pay more in fuel taxes on one full tank of petrol in Germany than if you were to purchase a 2-month vignette...
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Old July 8th, 2014, 04:25 PM   #6616
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It is actually against the idea of EU.
Yes. But no one is interested in the idea of EU in Germany.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 04:27 PM   #6617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Vignette system is good for small territories (Switzerland, Slovenia, Czech Rep...). When the area is large - and so is the motorway system - the price would need to be too high...

Is Germany going to introduce the vignette for sure or is it just an idea?
Nothing is sure that has not already happened, but yes, the current German government has a solid intention of introducing it from 2016.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 04:46 PM   #6618
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Nothing is sure that has not already happened, but yes, the current German government has a solid intention of introducing it from 2016.
By now, we have only been presented minister Dobrindt's concept.
This was born out of a populistic statement before the federal elections.
Of course, they had to deliver something.
But the rest of the coalition, namely CDU and SPD have been sceptical about the road toll even before the election, and they still are.

It means something that none of the federal ministers, let alone Chancellor Merkel, have given any statement on the concept.

I would not be surprised if the concept would not even pass the Cabinet.

Now it is Summer holiday, anyway. So we have our Sommerloch-discussion.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 04:55 PM   #6619
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The road toll is a part of the coalition agreement, not only a sudden idea of CSU and Herr Dobrindt. So I'm quite sure we will have a road toll in 2016. However, I am not sure that the concept will be the same as the one published by Herr Dobrindt yesterday.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #6620
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The road toll is a part of the coalition agreement, not only a sudden idea of CSU and Herr Dobrindt. So I'm quite sure we will have a road toll in 2016. However, I am not sure that the concept will be the same as the one published by Herr Dobrindt yesterday.
What if Mr. Gabriel or Mr. Kauder or Mr. Schäuble say: in the coalition contract we agreed on a road toll on motorways. If you want all roads, then it is not covered by the coalition contract.

First reaction from federal states politicians state the concern, that the toll may affect cross border tourism (just like we stated here above). So there will be even more opponents.
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