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Old July 8th, 2014, 07:15 PM   #6621
Surel
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Originally Posted by Heico-M View Post
The point is the cameras. Your number plate will be registered and the system will check if you have paid the toll or not. BUT: your number plate will of course be registered at various places and the system *can* create a so-called "movement profile" by registering at what time you have been at which place. German people fear to be surveilled like this, think they mostly fear to be falsely suspected a terrorist
And yet, they still use their mobile phones . Yes, any system is gullible.

Yes, there would be more cameras, but how many? There are already speed traps cameras doing the same and I don't hear about surveillance. It would depend on whether the system application would reduce the possibility of such use.

Anyway, can you imagine enforcing the sticker in a system like the German Autobahn? I would say that fake stickers would be easy to obtain.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #6622
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What if Mr. Gabriel or Mr. Kauder or Mr. Schäuble say: in the coalition contract we agreed on a road toll on motorways. If you want all roads, then it is not covered by the coalition contract.
OK, that's why I'm sure we'll have the toll in 2016 but I am not sure about the concept of Herr Dobrindt.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 08:03 PM   #6623
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It's the only motorway in Germany I know with a railtrack in the middle.
There are tram tracks on the central reservation of the A 395 in Braunschweig and the carriageways of the A 100 entwine the tracks of the Ringbahn in Charlottenburg for a few kilometres as well.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:09 PM   #6624
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Before reunification in 1989, did they plan to extend A-395 further south to Braunlage?
Yes, up to Braunlage, see 1974 demand plan map.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:11 PM   #6625
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OK, that's why I'm sure we'll have the toll in 2016
The infrastructure fee will never even been launched on 1st January 2016. Everything lasts much longer in Germany .
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #6626
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Vignette for all roads it's just crazy!

You are on Strasbourg and want to buy something on Kehl and you have to buy a 10 days vignette??? You miss to turn around on the right street on Forbach, you end up in Germany and risk to be fined? What about all the cities that are almost half german half dutch, or half german half czech or half german half polish... ?

How long until every EU country starts charging german cars for using their roads after this? 1 year? 6 months? Toll on motorways might be understandable at some point, but this is utter madness, it's creating problems where there weren't any... So typical of populist politicians...
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Last edited by MrAkumana; July 8th, 2014 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:30 PM   #6627
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I don't like that "infrastructure fee" bullshit at all. But there's a lack of money to maintain the road network and the government don't wants to spend the traffic incomes for road infrastructure. I am glad that the politicians discuss about improvements to fix this issue.

I dislike an Autobahn toll. That's crap! Commuter would avoid Autobahns and use through road. It's not a good idea if more cars and trucks would drive through the villages. I think the only good idea of this concept is, that the infrastructure fee should be valid on all roads. That'r really a great idea.

I've read and heart a lot about the problems near the border. For instance, about 10% of the sales in the Trier region is generated by people from Luxembourg. I think this issue could be solved by not penalize missing vignette within a 5 or 10km corridor from the border.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:35 PM   #6628
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I agree, tolling roads for cars is bullshit. Should be banned finally from Europe.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:52 PM   #6629
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Every kind of road toll is bullshit.
- Especially those restricted to motorways, since no intelligent person can want the increasing traffic inside towns because of cars avoiding the toll.
- Especially vignettes narrowing your field of vision.

Just because France, Austria, Spain have such a stupid system, this is not an excuse for us to introduce stupidity as well.
And in the case of Dobrints plan, a real heck of an organisational effort for a complicated system which only generates 600 million of additional income (if at all). And I predict: Germany's traffic budget won't profit by a single cent. Even if the money generated by the toll will be dedicated for it, Schäuble will just reduce the money coming from the general budget.

But Germany does not have a problem with revenues, it has a big big problem with spending too much money for unnecessary, partly even very stupid things in many sectors. Only investments into the future - education, research, security and traffic infrastructure (both rail and streets) are extremely underfinanced in this country.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:54 PM   #6630
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Even if the money generated by the toll will be dedicated for it, Schäuble will just reduce the money coming from the general budget.
That is exactly what happened with the LKW-Maut... twice.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:58 PM   #6631
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But Germany does not have a problem with revenues, it has a big big problem with spending too much money for unnecessary, partly even very stupid things in many sectors. Only investments into the future - education, research, security and traffic infrastructure (both rail and streets) are extremely underfinanced in this country.
Yes, the second big time bullshit i do not intend to ever believe: no money. All that matters is the distribution of the money.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 08:48 AM   #6632
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In my opinion, a better solution would be to increase the fuel taxes, with all fuel tax revenues going to road infrastructure.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 09:26 AM   #6633
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The motivation for this proposal is rather in making the foreigners pay than in increasing the financing.

It is a simple fact that in countries without any toll the residents pay the costs for the visiting foreigners. I am not in favor of usage related tolls because I see transportation infrastructure as a public good to the benefit of the whole society. On the other side the excise tax on fuels is also usage related.

A good financing system should take these conflicting requirements into consideration. I am talking about personal cars not LKW here.

It should be publicly financed to provide the public good for everyone.
The costs should be progressively shared - i.e. linked to income (proxied by e.g. the car price)
It should internalize the costs to some extent to prevent misuse and free riding.
It should be simple to enforce and collect.

For the LKW I think that usage related system is needed though. The LKW affects the roads too much and it is used almost entirely for business purposes.


A single financing system won't reflect on all those requirements at the same time, although the excise tax gets the closest to it, it doesn't reflect that well on the public good requirement and progressive sharing of the costs. It can also be problematic to collect from the foreigners due to different price levels and filling in foreign countries.

Road tax does not prevent free riding - foreigners use the system for free, it can internalize the costs to some extent (i.e. weight/axles related tax). It is however very easy to enforce and collect.

Toll systems are complicated and don't reflect on the public good issue.

Vignettes are a good answer, but they are not simple to enforce and collect. It is also not that practical to have many sticker vignettes of different categories.

The e-vignette solves most of the problems that the sticker vignette has.

=> I see it as follows.

1) The consumption excise tax on fuels should be the main source of income for the infrastructure. It allows for internalization of the costs. With the advent of alternative fuels and mainly the electric cars this will show up quite complicated to collect though. (excise tax for electricity won't be transportation related).

2) As long as there is a road tax it won't be possible to prevent free riding by the foreigners. There could be a EU wide road tax, but the redistribution would be too complicated and it would stir too much animosity. I would scrap the road tax altogether.

3) An e-vignette seems ideal solution. It's price can be set based on car parameters - to make it progressive and yet it would not completely internalize the costs to keep the infrastructure a public good. It is simple to collect (several parameters of the car - those are already linked to the registration number) and to enforce. In addition. Imagine that you know you won't use the car in the next half year. You simply don't buy the e-vignette for a half year, while you would need to keep paying the tax.


At the moment the income from consumption tax is much higher than the infrastructure costs. Thus the only motivation for any other sort of tax is either redistribution of the costs (road tax) or prevention of the free riding (vignette). I guess the functions of those both can be replaced with a e-vignette.

Last edited by Surel; July 9th, 2014 at 06:51 PM. Reason: filling, not tanking
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Old July 9th, 2014, 04:28 PM   #6634
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Vignette system is good for small territories (Switzerland, Slovenia, Czech Rep...). When the area is large - and so is the motorway system - the price would need to be too high...

Is Germany going to introduce the vignette for sure or is it just an idea?
problem is, small places as you wrote are transit countries and not targets of business, that is why we try to earn some from transit that is destroying our roads, without making any money for the country
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Old July 9th, 2014, 06:42 PM   #6635
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The motivation for this proposal is rather in making the foreigners pay than in increasing the financing.
No, not at all. The toll for foreigners was promised on the hustings. The Bavarian CSU has proposed it b/c the Bavarians have to pay for driving on Austrian Autobahns but the Austrians don't have to pay for driving on the Bavarian Autobahns! In addition, a lot of cars with yellow license plates and trailer congest the Autobahns.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 08:30 PM   #6636
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The announcement of the establishment in 2016 of a vignette to users throughout the German road network raises concern and anger in Alsace and Lorraine, many regularly crossing the border, and in particular German merchants.
While many French daily cross the Rhine to shop in German shops or stroll in the Black Forest, "the measure will impact small border traders, and at the same time undermining the purchasing power of frontier workers" estimated Cédric Rosen, head of the Association of Border Alsace-Lorraine.
"The question also arises for temporary workers to be more strongly affected. But it will also encourage carpooling, "said the president of the association which claims more than 6,000 members.
Vetrano Toni, the mayor of Kehl, situated on the German side in front of Strasbourg, wrote to German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble for him to express its "deep concern", while 45% of customers shopping center Kehl are French.
Mayor of Strasbourg Roland Ries, also president of the Strasbourg-Ortenau Eurodistrict, also sees "a violation free movement "within the border area who wants precisely as" a land without borders "in an interview with the Latest News from Alsace.
At Forbach also, "we are trying to build a EuroDistrict with our German neighbors and they are also not more favorable to the measure, "said the mayor of this town Moselle border, Laurent Kalinowski, who can" hardly conceivable to have a barrier to mobility. "
In total more than 50,000 French (30,000 Alsace and Lorraine 20000), cross the border to work in Germany, according to INSEE estimates.
For Automobile Club Association, the measure is "discriminatory" and excessive "because of its amount (up EUR 110 per year) and its scope ", while the Swiss vignette covers only highways, for an annual fee of 33 euros.
If the project announced by the German government were to succeed, the ACA reserves the opportunity 'to demand action from the French government to lodge an appeal, "said its president Roger Braun.
measurement may also veer to Alsace a whole part of transit traffic Swiss and Luxembourg in particular, fears Mr. Rosen.
Berlin announced earlier this week the introduction in 2016 of a toll for all motorists. The tax which already fulfills every car owner in Germany shall be reduced by all, so that foreign drivers are the only ones, in fact, to undergo additional taxation.
they can buy stamps in the order of 110 euros per year, ten euros for ten days or twenty two months.
European Commission has already indicated that it would argue any discriminating foreign project. The Netherlands and Austria have indicated their willingness to complain against the mechanism.

http://www.lalsace.fr/actualite/2014...rrains-furieux
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Old July 9th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #6637
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I don't understand why this is generating so much discussion. If Germany were ever to actually enact such a law, the European Commission would inform Germany that it violates the TFEU and, if Germany persists, then the European Court of Justice would order Germany to stop. It is not a serious proposal. It is just populist posturing by dishonest politicians who know it can never be implemented if Germany is to remain in the European Union.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 08:59 PM   #6638
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I don't think the EU is entitled to interfere. I hope not anyway. Countries should decide these legislations on a national level, not a European one.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 09:14 PM   #6639
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Well, that's mainly the point of the EU...

All in all, I don't give a damn about what the Germans (or anyone else) want to do to pay their roads. Toll, e-toll, vignette, fuel tax, whatever.
I just can't stand the concept of "everyone pays but not me".

It is not a matter of EU, or freedom of movement, or human rights. It's just a plain case of grand *******ry.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #6640
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I don't think the EU is entitled to interfere. I hope not anyway. Countries should decide these legislations on a national level, not a European one.
If EU is not entitled to interfere in matters like these, I don't see the purpose of its existence.
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