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Old July 10th, 2014, 08:38 PM   #6681
Wilhem275
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Probably they could just split the maintenance, without the burden (and cost) of building a toll system

But still, I don't think the "Austrian corridor" really burdens that much the German road budget (or even only the Bavarian one).
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Old July 10th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #6682
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
An awfully expensive toll there would just lead to another legal case. A moderate toll, however, could a way to settle the issue of making Austrians pay for its transit through Germany without effecting the relations to all the other neighbouring countries.

Something similar would be needed for the short route through the Berchtesgadener Land as well as the long route via Deggendorf.
I don't think you want to burden Austrians and locals alike in the Kleines Deutsche Eck. It's not only a small amount of Austrians using that route for transit, but there's also tourism and the Therme in Bad Reichenhall. They will be staying away then. If you are going to slap a toll on the Austrian transitroute through Germany, stick with motorways only.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #6683
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I don't think you want to burden Austrians and locals alike in the Kleines Deutsche Eck. It's not only a small amount of Austrians using that route for transit, but there's also tourism and the Therme in Bad Reichenhall. They will be staying away then. If you are going to slap a toll on the Austrian transitroute through Germany, stick with motorways only.
People in that area vote overwhelmingly CSU. So they seem to want some kind of road pricing with all the consequence. And there is no reason why we should except non-motorways from such a toll scheme.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 11:31 PM   #6684
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People in that area vote overwhelmingly CSU. So they seem to want some kind of road pricing with all the consequence. And there is no reason why we should except non-motorways from such a toll scheme.
People in Bavaria vote for CSU because they have always done so.
On the contrary, less and less people vote for them.
And they have always been a little populistic.

This project however is a real disappointment.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 11:44 PM   #6685
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People in Bavaria vote for CSU because they have always done so.
Then it's about time they face the consequences of voting without thinking
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Old July 11th, 2014, 12:22 AM   #6686
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How would rank Germany when it comes to construction speeds of roadways on 1-5 scale, with 5 being the slowest?
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Old July 11th, 2014, 01:03 AM   #6687
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How would rank Germany when it comes to construction speeds of roadways on 1-5 scale, with 5 being the slowest?
About seven.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 01:08 AM   #6688
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It isn't so bad - they actually build the roads. Many places plan or talk and never build anything.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 01:47 AM   #6689
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How would rank Germany when it comes to construction speeds of roadways on 1-5 scale, with 5 being the slowest?
2 - Some project might be painfully dragging. But overall road construction is still reasonably fast.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 03:23 PM   #6690
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How would rank Germany when it comes to construction speeds of roadways on 1-5 scale, with 5 being the slowest?
It varies a lot. Some are off scale, while others are reasonably fast. The main problem is that state-built projects are very fragmented, 3-4 years for 3-7 km at a time. At that pace it takes a decade to widen a longer stretch of Autobahn. Just look at how A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart drags on. Concession projects are much faster, they widened 75 kilometers of A1 Hamburg - Bremen in 4 years.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #6691
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And there is no reason why we should except non-motorways from such a toll scheme.
When you say "we", are you being sarcastic towards the locals? Or is this your opinion as well?
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Old July 11th, 2014, 05:54 PM   #6692
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We must differ widening projects and new roads.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
they widened 75 kilometers of A1 Hamburg - Bremen in 4 years.
I think that should be a "2". A "1" would be 2 years. A "3" means within ten years, A "4" within 20 years, a "5" within more than 20 years.

A1 Hamburg - Bremen (75km, PPP): 2
A1 Ahlhorn - Osnabrück (75km): 3(-4)
A3 Aschaffenburg - Würzburg (90km): 4(-5)
A8 Ulm - Augsburg (45km, PPP): 2
A8 Augsburg - Munich (50km, PPP): 2
A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart (50km): 4(-5)
....

I think German widening projects should be ranked to 3 or 4.
In general, it varies a lot!
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Old July 11th, 2014, 07:00 PM   #6693
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When you say "we", are you being sarcastic towards the locals? Or is this your opinion as well?
I have no reason to be sarcastic. As I stated above, the locals voted in favour of a toll scheme. They can't complain when they get what they voted for.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 07:12 PM   #6694
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True. It's different in the border region with Holland. Today Dutch and German mayors of towns alongside the border have met on the border today and exchanged hands. A video of this meeting is to be sent to Berlin, as they are NOT in favour of tolling the roads. Borders in that region have ceased to exist a long time ago, and Germans and Dutch people work,shop and go out on both sides of the border, and have families as well on both sides.

A similar situation in Kehl, the German border town with Strasbourg in France. 40 percent of the shoppers in Kehl are French, and traffic between Kehl and Strasbourg is heavy on a daily basis with workers, shoppers and family visitors. No border there. The Gemeinderat of Kehl is very angry!

http://www.kehl.de/stadt/verwaltung/...n/20140709.php
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Old July 12th, 2014, 02:19 AM   #6695
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Same here near the Dutch border. Local businesses are not happy about the Maut.
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Old July 12th, 2014, 04:55 AM   #6696
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Once upon a time that was true, but not anymore. Now all EU regulations and directives are enacted only by agreement between the Council and the Parliament.
That is not true. I just happend to know a field very well where the Council acts almost exclusively as the sole lawmaker and that is taxation.

Writing an paper about this piece of legislation right now: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...4L0048&from=EN


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Primary EU law is binding on both member states and individuals (and businesses). Secondary EU law is binding on individuals (and businesses).
Also not very accurate. Primary law is normally just binding on the member states and the EU as such. Only in matters where the Van Gend & Loos criteria is met individuals may be bound by primary law as well.

Secondary law also usually binds the member states as most bills passed (that are not just amendments and technical regulations) are in the form of directives which have to be transformed into national law in order to have any binding effect on individuals (notwithstanding situations where it is binding on a horizontal level due to cases of direct effects). Almost every directive even has an own article stating that "This Directive is addressed to the Member States." at the very end of each bill. At least I haven't come across a single directive yet missing that phrase.
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Old July 12th, 2014, 05:16 AM   #6697
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An individual would have to start with the German courts and exhaust all appeals before going to the ECJ.
1) This is not the ECtHR where national remedies have to be exhausted. Any court/tribunal could initiate a preliminary ruling.

2) It is not up to the complainant, whether the case ends up infront of the ECJ (his own words). Totally up to the national courts if they ask for a preliminary ruling or not. This might expose the MS to state liability claims, but this does not change the general concept.
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Old July 12th, 2014, 10:53 AM   #6698
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True. It's different in the border region with Holland. Today Dutch and German mayors of towns alongside the border have met on the border today and exchanged hands. A video of this meeting is to be sent to Berlin, as they are NOT in favour of tolling the roads. Borders in that region have ceased to exist a long time ago, and Germans and Dutch people work,shop and go out on both sides of the border, and have families as well on both sides.

A similar situation in Kehl, the German border town with Strasbourg in France. 40 percent of the shoppers in Kehl are French, and traffic between Kehl and Strasbourg is heavy on a daily basis with workers, shoppers and family visitors. No border there. The Gemeinderat of Kehl is very angry!

http://www.kehl.de/stadt/verwaltung/...n/20140709.php
I think with such opposition, it's simply not going to go ahead. Such systems might work in Romania where cross-border integration is low, but some of those areas on the Western border effectively function as one town. I'm pretty sure that the mayors of Zgorzelec-Gorlitz will also be angry about this, given that they've tried so, so hard to integrate the towns.
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Old July 12th, 2014, 11:18 AM   #6699
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I have no reason to be sarcastic. As I stated above, the locals voted in favour of a toll scheme. They can't complain when they get what they voted for.
Actually the toll was the idea of CSU, and this party exits only in Bavaria. So people that don't live in bavaria (approx. 85% of German population) did not vote in favor of any toll. Additionally, CSU had approx. 50% in Bavaria, which is quite impressive but in this case it means that only 8% of the German population voted for CSU (more precisely it was 8.1% of the votes in all-German level).
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Old July 12th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #6700
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only 8% of the German population voted for CSU (more precisely it was 8.1% of the votes in all-German level).
Voting the CSU does not mean to favor a car toll!

Wahl des geringeren Übels (voting the lower evil).
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