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Old July 14th, 2014, 01:14 PM   #6721
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People WILL avoid autobahns if there's a toll to pay and opt to use B-roads instead, like they do in France. In France it's not so bad, as France is not such a densely populated country as Germany to begin with, and secondly - there are no toll roads in densely populated areas. Put a toll on all autobahns in Germany - and autobahns only - could create mayhem on all other roads.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 01:24 PM   #6722
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
People WILL avoid autobahns if there's a toll to pay and opt to use B-roads instead, like they do in France. In France it's not so bad, as France is not such a densely populated country as Germany to begin with, and secondly - there are no toll roads in densely populated areas. Put a toll on all autobahns in Germany - and autobahns only - could create mayhem on all other roads.
Well, 100€ a year are not that much money...
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Old July 14th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #6723
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And Autobahns will always have something to lure people in: extreme speed
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Old July 14th, 2014, 01:47 PM   #6724
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Well, 100€ a year are not that much money...
You obviously haven't met the Dutch. They reluctantly buy a Swiss vignette for 40€ for their annual holiday and put it up for sale again in their local ads when they get back.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 01:53 PM   #6725
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How are they peeling it off without tearing it?
Or do they not even stick it to the windshield, but use some kind of trick to make it look like it's on the glass?
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Old July 14th, 2014, 01:57 PM   #6726
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They don't put it on properly or very loosely. They even use sellotape if they have to...
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Old July 15th, 2014, 06:22 AM   #6727
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These "people would take the train" is usually an unworkable proposition for most commuting trips, except at expense of doubling (or more) the total travel time.

If both your home and workplace are located near (= 5-7min walking maximum) a railway station (or, in larger cities that have them, U-Bahn and S-Bahn stations), then using trains for commuting is often a viable idea and probably cheaper.

If just your home or workplace are located near a railway station, and the other requires some additional tram/bus trip from another station; then you will often find car is faster, though certain travel patterns can still be time competitive and most will be cost-competitive.

For the majority of commute origin-destination pairs, there is no railway station near either end. Then, if you need to combine something like bus + train + tram for commuting, almost always car trips will be faster, even if cars don't reach the train top speed.

There is a secondary perverse effect of tolling highways and therefore diverting traffic to local roads: rate of crashes, injuries and fatalities on non-highway roads is much higher than on highways. A controlled-access highway with no pedestrians and cyclists and divided directional flows and proper entrance/exit points will always be safer than having cars, trucks, mopeds driving though country 1+1 roads or city streets where pedestrians and cyclists interact directly with road traffic.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 01:00 PM   #6728
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I still go with public transport on my daily commute, even though it takes longer than driving (45' to 1h, compared to 30' by car). In the long run it's cheaper and I can sit back, relax and read a book while the driver does all the work.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 01:04 PM   #6729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
And Autobahns will always have something to lure people in: extreme speed
Not everyone driving in Autobahnen does 180 km/h. Most people don't exceed 130.

Tolling motorways in such a densely-populated country is nonsense. The foreigner-only thing is just pure xenophobic madness. It's the typical rich-country mantra that recession has brought us: "we're paying for the lazy Italians/Spanish/Greek that have created this recession with their high salaries and low taxes". It's no German thing, it exists in all countries. And it's soooo easy for politicians to trigger xenophobia to gain votes. It's disgusting.

I mean, it's like everyone is ignoring all the progress that the EU has brought to us all. I would favour a toll for Germans (not foreigners, just Germans) in my country if this gets the green light.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 01:09 PM   #6730
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Italians with high salaries and low taxes? Which universe is this?
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Old July 15th, 2014, 02:38 PM   #6731
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Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Not everyone driving in Autobahnen does 180 km/h. Most people don't exceed 130.

Tolling motorways in such a densely-populated country is nonsense. The foreigner-only thing is just pure xenophobic madness. It's the typical rich-country mantra that recession has brought us: "we're paying for the lazy Italians/Spanish/Greek that have created this recession with their high salaries and low taxes". It's no German thing, it exists in all countries. And it's soooo easy for politicians to trigger xenophobia to gain votes. It's disgusting.

I mean, it's like everyone is ignoring all the progress that the EU has brought to us all. I would favour a toll for Germans (not foreigners, just Germans) in my country if this gets the green light.
Is it even xenophobia? The "logic" of putting the tax burden on people who can't vote against you is fairly simple.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 03:26 PM   #6732
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What xenophobia are you talking about here guys?

At the moment private foreigners pay 0, null, nothing, not a penny for using german motorways and road network. The cost are completely covered by german residents, whileo german road network is highly utilized by foreigners.

No one is even proposing any foreigners only charge as some would like us to believe. Germany simply wants that foreigners pay at least somthing. Even after this proposal would be throug, the residents would still be paying much more.

And what a bullshit comparing to Italy or France. I allways feel raped when exiting tolled motorway there. In CZ SK AU SL HU SW etc everywhete tolled motorways. Indeed as German I would not be content with it. Btw NL is in the same posittion as Germany, but the foreign traffic is not so strong here.

If you want to talk about German xenophobia this is not the right issue. I would rather be concerned with those excesive police checks of foreign cars.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 03:31 PM   #6733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post


What xenophobia are you talking about here guys?

At the moment private foreigners pay 0, null, nothing, not a penny for using german motorways and road network. The cost are completely covered by german residents, whileo german road network is highly utilized by foreigners.

No one is even proposing any foreigners only charge as some would like us to believe. Germany simply wants that foreigners pay at least somthing. Even after this proposal would be throug, the residents would still be paying much more.

And what a bullshit comparing to Italy or France. I allways feel raped when exiting tolled motorway there. In CZ SK AU SL HU SW etc everywhete tolled motorways. Indeed as German I would not be content with it. Btw NL is in the same posittion as Germany, but the foreign traffic is not so strong here.

If you want to talk about German xenophobia this is not the right issue. I would rather be concerned with those excesive police checks of foreign cars.
First of all you do not call serious statements from users bullshit. Secondly I was making the comparison with France only to point out that in France there are other options than using the autoroute, unlike Germany where these other options will get congested.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #6734
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Quote:
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At the moment private foreigners pay 0, null, nothing, not a penny for using german motorways and road network. The cost are completely covered by german residents
If you're talking about direct payments, then both foreigners and Germans do not pay directly for driving on the Autobahn. The system is financed through indirect taxation, chiefly fuel duties. However, income and expenditures are not linked. Even the road tax is not a user fee, but a general tax, as it is in most European countries.

And foreigners also refuel in Germany, in some areas there is substantial cross-border refueling at Germany's benefit. (One tank of petrol generates more tax revenue for Germany than the 2-month vignette and in some cases even the annual vignette).

The net benefit of the proposed vignette is less than € 10 per inhabitant. Do they really want to risk tourism and cross-border tourism for that? The revenue of tourism only has to drop by 1.5% to make this vignette a financial loss. Add potential losses of cross-border shopping to that, and the vignette will be a disaster and bureaucratic mess.

Quote:
while german road network is highly utilized by foreigners.
Approximately 5% of all PKW-kilometers.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; July 15th, 2014 at 04:20 PM.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 04:07 PM   #6735
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What xenophobia are you talking about here guys?
Don't point at me - I was just questioning verreme's use of the word xenophobia. Because I'm not sure it's accurate or fair. Don't care one way or another about the rest of the issue.

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Old July 15th, 2014, 08:59 PM   #6736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Approximately 5% of all PKW-kilometers.
Including trucks, 11% of all vehicles using Autobahns in 2008 were owned by foreigners (+30% compared with 2003; 8% share): source. You can see on the maps on which Autobahns vehicles of which country drove in 2008.

The top countries are:
1. Poland 24% of all foreign vehicles
2. The Netherlands 22%
3. Czech Republic 8%
4. Austria 7%
5. Switzerland 4%
6. France 4%
7. Belgium 4%
8. Italy 4%
9. Denmark 3%
10. Hungary 3%
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Old July 15th, 2014, 09:10 PM   #6737
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Number of vehicles and vehicles*km are two very different things.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #6738
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It's vehicles*km, "Ausländerfahrleistung"

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Mit durchschnittlich 198 Kfz/24h (orange) hatten Kfz aus Italien auf BAB 2008 einen Anteil von fast 4 % an der Ausländerfahrleistung.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:28 PM   #6739
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PL/NL makes sense but the dramatic drop for France seems strange, though perhaps geographically more logical
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:31 PM   #6740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you're talking about direct payments, then both foreigners and Germans do not pay directly for driving on the Autobahn. The system is financed through indirect taxation, chiefly fuel duties. However, income and expenditures are not linked. Even the road tax is not a user fee, but a general tax, as it is in most European countries.

And foreigners also refuel in Germany, in some areas there is substantial cross-border refueling at Germany's benefit. (One tank of petrol generates more tax revenue for Germany than the 2-month vignette and in some cases even the annual vignette).

The net benefit of the proposed vignette is less than € 10 per inhabitant. Do they really want to risk tourism and cross-border tourism for that? The revenue of tourism only has to drop by 1.5% to make this vignette a financial loss. Add potential losses of cross-border shopping to that, and the vignette will be a disaster and bureaucratic mess.



Approximately 5% of all PKW-kilometers.

I knew someone would write about the excise duties and I should have not word it so harsh. But I wanted to make a point that people seem to be ignoring, about how the foreigners driving in Germany are subsidized by German residents. And yes, foreigners pay them (excise duties) if and only if they buy gasoline in Germany. But I guess that you also know what I meant by that foreigners don't pay anything for using the roads in Germany. Road tax doesn't have to be directly linked to the road budget, but every resident with a car has to pay it. Put it more accurately. Foreigners using German roads are subsidized by the taxpayers in Germany. Since a government can't issue a road tax on the non residents, it has to find other means how to make them pay. It is legitimate if government doesn't want to discriminate own residents at the advantage of foreign visitors. It is surprising for me when someone calls this xenophobic or turns it into discrimination of foreigners. Yes, it is unpleasant but that is what it is. Nothing else. It sucks because Germany is in the middle of Europe and everyone needs to use its network from time to time.

As about the net economic effect on the German budget and German GDP, it is up to the German government to come up with the numbers. I don't think that it will have big negative effect on either German tourism sector nor number of foreign drivers on German roads. It could have substantial effect on cross border shopping, but that is easy remedied with making border areas or motorway sections vignette free.

The tax varies significantly, from 20-30 euro for a gasoline tin car, to several hundred for a diesel.

The benefit of the vignette is (as I understand it) 100 % min the operational and investment costs. So it can be few tenths or few hundreds per car. The foreigners would just have to begin to pay something that the residents already pay.

German revenues from the motor vehicle tax were some € 8.5 BLN yearly last three years if I understand it correctly (I might be quite wrong here as my German is rusty). If 5 % PKW kms would translate into 10 % PKWs we could see jump in revenue of some € 850 MLN yearly. Or in other words, the German budget subsidizes foreign drivers at the moment with € 850 MLN yearly.

Last edited by Surel; July 15th, 2014 at 11:37 PM.
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