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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:36 PM   #6741
Kanadzie
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Is there really a cost to German taxpayers though? Surely the massive fuel taxes more than offset that considering wear on a road surface of a PKW is essentially zero. Moreover the presence of foreigners in the country brings economic benefits (including VAT), if you send them away you lose these... furthermore there can't be any talk of "equity" when you end up having a vignette system costing 100 EUR for 1 year and 10 EUR for 1 day (or however it will be)
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:42 PM   #6742
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Is there really a cost to German taxpayers though? Surely the massive fuel taxes more than offset that considering wear on a road surface of a PKW is essentially zero. Moreover the presence of foreigners in the country brings economic benefits (including VAT), if you send them away you lose these... furthermore there can't be any talk of "equity" when you end up having a vignette system costing 100 EUR for 1 year and 10 EUR for 1 day (or however it will be)
Yes, there is a cost - the additional tax costs that he has to pay which the foreigner doesn't.

Imagine that 10 people pay each € 10 tax - you got € 100. If you let 11 people pay € 9.09 you got the same € 100, but everyone had to pay 91 cents less...
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Old July 16th, 2014, 09:45 AM   #6743
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Correct. And it is absolutely true for the Netherlands and Denmark as well. Additionally, fuel is significantly cheaper in Germany than in those countries so nowadays many people from there come to Germany in order to fill up the tank, they pay fuel tax in Germany and use the roads at home. But German cars do not buy gas in NL/DK, but use the roads there. So it would be quite logical to introduce a new toll for German cars in those countries because we use their roads and pay nothing for it.

It is pretty logical why this idea comes from Bavaria: all, and really all of their neighbors (CZ, AT, CH), and all the countries which are not direct neighbors but they visit them oft (I, SK, H) have a toll. In Western and Northern Germany where we have toll free neighbors (B, L, NL, DK) this German toll will have painful consequences: all those countries may introduce a toll for German cars, following the same logic which you explained.

Financing roads from fuel tax and road tax was a good idea in an age when you saw foreign cars perhaps in holiday seasons but usually 99% of cars in a motorway was registered in the country where that road was, but in the current EU, where borders are almost invisible, a road toll is much better and much even-handed idea.

However, the word that every German tax payers will pay exactly so much as currently, and the very complicated (and pretty unjust) toll system which is a simple copy of the current road tax system, makes this German toll quite crazy.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 09:57 AM   #6744
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Financing roads from fuel tax and road tax was a good idea in an age when you saw foreign cars perhaps in holiday seasons but usually 99% of cars in a motorway was registered in the country where that road was, but in the current EU, where borders are almost invisible, a road toll is much better and much even-handed idea.
I don't get why they want to go through the lenghts to make foreigners pay their "equal" share. The net benefits of the vignette are only about 1.2% of all road-related taxation in Germany. And vignettes are not a fair way to tax foreigners, since vignette system are a disadvantage to foreigners. If you converse the amount of foreign car kilometers to the share of vignette toll, you will see foreigners pay a disproportional high share.

For example, 5% of all passenger vehicle kilometers in Germany are done by foreign vehicles. Yet the proposed vignette will create a gross revenue of € 4.7 billion, of which foreigners pay € 860 million. That is 18%. So foreigners will pay 3.5 times more taxes relative to German drivers.

This is not very different from other vignette countries though. A Slovenian could drive thousands of kilometers on the € 110 annual vignette, while a passing-through tourist may drive 100 km on a € 15 week vignette.

However, in the end, vignettes are *much* cheaper than distance-based tolling. The 2-month vignette will cost you the same as driving 2 hours on a French toll road.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 12:57 PM   #6745
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For example, 5% of all passenger vehicle kilometers in Germany are done by foreign vehicles. Yet the proposed vignette will create a gross revenue of € 4.7 billion, of which foreigners pay € 860 million. That is 18%. So foreigners will pay 3.5 times more taxes relative to German drivers.
Where you get the gross total revenue from? Yet the road tax revenue will still be another € 4 BLN then... The residents will still be paying the left over road tax which the foreigners won't be paying. It would thus be close to 10 %.

As I said in the beginning the road tax is there to finance the roads partly as a public good and partly to make the financing proportional to income. Lately, it became also environmental issue.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 01:11 PM   #6746
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The € 4.7 billion figure is the total vignette revenue, before road tax compensation for German cars.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #6747
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Does A24 still have a 100km/h speed limit between A19 and A100 interchanges?

What about A1 between Bremen and Hamburg, does it still carry a "temporary" speed limit of 120km/h as well?
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Old July 16th, 2014, 01:25 PM   #6748
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The € 4.7 billion figure is the total vignette revenue, before road tax compensation for German cars.
Yes and I am curious where does this figure come from as well as those € 860 MLN.

I did not have the actual numbers when I looked at it so I am curious where do those forecasts come from. I just had the total revenue from the tax as it is now. That is € 8.5 BLN yearly. Then I assumed that if there are 10 % foreign cars in the carpool on the German roads, we could expect some € 850 MLN vignette revenue from those foreigners if the road tax was fully replaced with e-vignette.


You say that vignette will bring € 4.7 BLN (I guess this comes from the current introduced plan). So there still have to be paid some € 4 BLN by the German tax payers in left over taxes to make up for the total currently paid € 8.5 BLN. You see that if the income from foreign cars is estimated at € 860 MLN and the total income (vignette + tax) will stay at € 8.5 BLN, the foreign share is 10 % and not more, which would correspond to their share on the road.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 01:30 PM   #6749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Financing roads from fuel tax and road tax was a good idea in an age when you saw foreign cars perhaps in holiday seasons but usually 99% of cars in a motorway was registered in the country where that road was, but in the current EU, where borders are almost invisible, a road toll is much better and much even-handed idea.
It's depend, as an electronic road toll may be even more confusing than a nationwide vignette. We in Europe are mostly not used to this system, and I don't think that Germany will build traditional toll booths on every entry/exit, or on sections.

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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
However, the word that every German tax payers will pay exactly so much as currently, and the very complicated (and pretty unjust) toll system which is a simple copy of the current road tax system, makes this German toll quite crazy.
It's pity that we never wanted to take some elements from the American road-user friendly system, with reasonable fuel prices and taxes, low tolls on some sections, also their system of "priority lane" for HOV.
IMHO, we are too ideologist here in Europe, making unnecessarily life harder for everyone.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #6750
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Yes and I am curious where does this figure come from as well as those € 860 MLN.
These are projections by the German government, as stated in the press release: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anl...ublicationFile

Revenue: € 4.7 billion
German cars: € 3.8 billion (compensated through lower road tax)
foreign cars: € 860 million
system cost: € 260 million
net revenue: € 600 million
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Old July 16th, 2014, 01:46 PM   #6751
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
These are projections by the German government, as stated in the press release: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anl...ublicationFile

Revenue: € 4.7 billion
German cars: € 3.8 billion (compensated through lower road tax)
foreign cars: € 860 million
system cost: € 260 million
net revenue: € 600 million
TY.

So we can see that the projected total foreign share is at 10 % of the current total tax burden to the German residents which corresponds to the foreign share on the road.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 01:59 PM   #6752
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The foreign share in passenger car kilometers in Germany is 5%, not 10% or 18%.

I'm not sure if your figure of € 8.5 billion for the total road tax also includes taxes on trucks. Because trucks also pay separately through the LKW-Maut.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:22 PM   #6753
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
TY.

So we can see that the projected total foreign share is at 10 % of the current total tax burden to the German residents which corresponds to the foreign share on the road.
Sorry?
If total income is 4.7bn, foreign cars pay 860mn, it is not 10% but 18%.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 04:15 PM   #6754
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The foreign share in passenger car kilometers in Germany is 5%, not 10% or 18%.

I'm not sure if your figure of € 8.5 billion for the total road tax also includes taxes on trucks. Because trucks also pay separately through the LKW-Maut.
The vignette is paid from a car not from kms...

It would take me too long with my German to search the really detailed numbers. But the PKW paid at least € 7 BLN in 2012. The rest of € 1.5 BLN might come from other non LKW vehicles I guess. Not LKW maut. LKW maut is some € 4.5 BLN yearly.

http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.d...eugsteuer.html
Quote:
Das Kraftfahrzeugsteueraufkommen der Personenkraftwagen (Pkw) veränderte sich gegenüber 2011 kaum und stieg nur geringfügig um rund 0,6 Mio. € auf 7,05 Mrd. €. Das Aufkommen aus den Pkw mit Dieselmotor ist dabei um rund 125,3 Mio. € angestiegen und das der mit Ottomotoren ausgerüsteten Pkw um rund 124,7 Mio. € gesunken.

...

Tabelle1: Anteil der Kraftfahrzeugsteuer Pkw am Gesamtaufkommen
...
Insgesamt lt. Kassenjahr
8 897,6
The total KFZ over the years were like this:
http://de.statista.com/statistik/dat...n-deutschland/
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Old July 16th, 2014, 04:21 PM   #6755
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Sorry?
If total income is 4.7bn, foreign cars pay 860mn, it is not 10% but 18%.
The German residents would still have to pay the left over road tax worth some € 4 BLN and buy the vignette at the same time.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 06:38 PM   #6756
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PL/NL makes sense but the dramatic drop for France seems strange, though perhaps geographically more logical
There is almost no relation b/n Germany and France.

I usually don't see any France car on German roads. Only near the border (Karlsruhe/Freiburg). I even see more cars from Luxembourg on German roads.....
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Old July 16th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #6757
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A44 Kassel - Eisenach

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There are no delays according to the A44 project page. But they have changed the completion date for the section AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West to AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center from fall 2013 to spring 2014 within the last few days.
According to a newspaper article the delay is caused by problems with the technical equipment of the tunnel.
The project page says that the opening of the 2.2km long A44 section near Hessich Lichtenau is planned to be in mid 2014.
The A44 section b/n i/c Hessisch Lichtenau-West and i/c Hessisch Lichtenau-Center will finally be opened on 24th July 2014. Source.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 08:55 PM   #6758
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A5 Karlsruhe - Freiburg

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The works on the last 2.8km section of the A5 PPP project b/n Appenweier and Offenburg will resume in two weeks and will be completed in July. The works were almost completed last fall, but the contractor said, they have to save money b/c the truck incomes are lower than expected. According to the contract the widening must be completed until 30th September 2014.
After the completion of the resumed works, the entire 2x3 widening b/n Baden-Baden and Offburg will be completed (>40km). The works began in 2010.
All A5 widening sections are 2x3 in service since today.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #6759
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A8 Albaufstieg

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How it could look like...
The state's Minster of Transport, Mr. Hermann (Green Party), visited the region, see press release. He wants to expedite the project. A presentation of the project was published too: > click <. The 8.3km section contains the 800m Filstalbrücke viaduct, the 1,200m Himmelsschleife tunnel, the 460m Gosbachtalbrücke viaduct and the 1,700m Drackenstein tunnel.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 09:08 PM   #6760
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B327 Kastellaun bypass

The B327 Kastellaun bypass will be opened on 29th July 2014 (OSM). The plan approval procedure began in August 1983 and the plan approval order was finally passed in April 2005. The groundbreaking took place in August 2011. The bypass has a length of 4.7km and contains a 200m viaduct. The estimated costs are 29 million € (August 2011 press release) or 21 million € (today's press release).
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