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Old August 18th, 2014, 09:11 PM   #6941
ChrisZwolle
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A8 west of München will be 2x3 by 2015 (in Bavaria), so they can shift focus to A8 Rosenheim - Innsbruck.

But if you look at the traffic volumes, A8 east of Rosenheim is clearly less important than some other motorways. It carries in the 45,000 - 60,000 vehicles per day range. Which is a fairly busy 2x2 motorway, but not very congested except during holiday peaks. Widening this part of A8 is not just a matter of adding a strip of pavement, it likely needs some realignment here and there, replacement of every bridge, probably some noise tunnels and a twice as wide footprint, which drives up the cost considerably.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 09:23 PM   #6942
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A8 west of München will be 2x3 by 2015 (in Bavaria), so they can shift focus to A8 Rosenheim - Innsbruck.
I don't get it.

Planning ressources? The A8 widening b/n Ulm and Munich was a PPP project.

Funding? The same. PPP. You cannot compare... A99 widening is more important also A3/A6 in northern Bavaria and there are some expensive projects like B2 Oberau tunnel, B15 Rosenheim bypass, A94,...
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Old August 18th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #6943
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And Rosenheim to Innsbruck is under full maintenance as we speak. That's why I don't believe in speculations from a 1000 miles away based on so many vehicles a day. Come here, live here for a bit and use these roads yourself before you make judgments based on data. And then tell us what should be done. Not when you're not familiar with the area and only making judgments based on numbers from a website.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:03 PM   #6944
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And Rosenheim to Innsbruck is under full maintenance as we speak. That's why I don't believe in speculations from a 1000 miles away based on so many vehicles a day. Come here, live here for a bit and use these roads yourself before you make judgments based on data. And then tell us what should be done. Not when you're not familiar with the area and only making judgments based on numbers from a website.
Numbers are the only way to assess the need of enlargement of a road or a new road altogether. You can't rely on "come live here and see for yourself", otherwise every road in the world would need enlargement.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:09 PM   #6945
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I've not driven the A8 east of Rosenheim in the past 20 years but as far as I know the surface is really bad, isn't it? I guess they have to renew the surface before the first section will be widened. "orks will not begin before 2020 b/c of the planning bureaucracy and NIMBYs. Afterwards, the funding is the next hurdle...

The missing hard shoulders are also poor.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:12 PM   #6946
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I'd prefer not to meet any orks there
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #6947
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A8 widening is a good candidate for a PPP project, in fact most longer distance widening projects are. They could be reimbursed by truck toll income, but that is costing the government revenue. The standard PPP is an availability payment from the government.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:17 PM   #6948
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PPP has one disadvantage. All sections need a plan approval order before the works begin. That means, groundbreaking 2025+ (best case).
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:24 PM   #6949
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Some pics of the A8 Salzburg - Rosenheim taken by Stephan (http://autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a8b.htm - I guess taken in 2011/12 Talbrücke Bergen u/c)













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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #6950
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That's why we have just one plan approval procedure for the whole project in the Netherlands. I think cutting it up in multiple short stretches is something you'll mainly see in Germany.

You reported once that some plan approval orders (planfeststellingsbeschluß) are prepared by only 2 or 3 people in I think it was Baden-Württemberg. Do they do this inhouse at the ministry?
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:32 PM   #6951
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You reported once that some plan approval orders (planfeststellingsbeschluß) are prepared by only 2 or 3 people in I think it was Baden-Württemberg. Do they do this inhouse at the ministry?
It's the "Regierungspräsidium" in Baden-Württemberg (regional board / regional commission). In Bavaria it's the ABDSB / ABDNB (Autobahn authority north/southern Bavaria). It's usually done inhouse. Most of the state's are members of the DEGES meanwhile (but neither Baden-Württemberg nor Bavaria). The Baden-Württemberg problem is caused by the 1990th austerity (CDU/FDP government). The current green-red government undo it now.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:45 PM   #6952
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I've not driven the A8 east of Rosenheim in the past 20 years but as far as I know the surface is really bad, isn't it? I guess they have to renew the surface before the first section will be widened. "orks will not begin before 2020 b/c of the planning bureaucracy and NIMBYs. Afterwards, the funding is the next hurdle...

The missing hard shoulders are also poor.
A8 east of Rosenheim has perfect surface all the way to Salzburg. To me the only problem is lack of hard shoulder in places. A93 Rosenheim to Kiefersfelden is a different story. It has the worst surface, but roadworks are now in progress and there has been resurfacing going on for nearly 2 years now, which is shamefully long actually. The French can build a brand new motorway the same length within a week.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:48 PM   #6953
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Sorry, I've mistaken A8 and A93... You're right . Missing hard shoulders is bad but not essential.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:49 PM   #6954
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Numbers are the only way to assess the need of enlargement of a road or a new road altogether. You can't rely on "come live here and see for yourself", otherwise every road in the world would need enlargement.
Yes you can. You need to look at the time of traffic, types of traffic etc. For example traffic jams from Rosenheim to Innsbruck occur mainly on Saturday's in the winter only. Is that reason enough to widen the entire stretch? According to some who have never even been here it is.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #6955
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Is that reason enough to widen the entire stretch?
C'mon. AADT. The first A means average....... Peaks are not essential.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 10:57 PM   #6956
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Yes you can. You need to look at the time of traffic, types of traffic etc. For example traffic jams from Rosenheim to Innsbruck occur mainly on Saturday's in the winter only. Is that reason enough to widen the entire stretch? According to some who have never even been here it is.
So, like 10 days out of 365.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 11:02 PM   #6957
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Every Saturday from Christmas to April. And on these days it is a hell of a lot, I can tell you. Nobody is going anywhere.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 11:05 PM   #6958
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C'mon. AADT. The first A means average....... Peaks are not essential.
Well that's the thing. There are no peak hours in these neck of the woods. Only peak periods. Even the A99 around Munich mainly gets congested due to holiday traffic only. Not commuter traffic.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 11:16 PM   #6959
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Well that's the thing. There are no peak hours in these neck of the woods. Only peak periods. Even the A99 around Munich mainly gets congested due to holiday traffic only. Not commuter traffic.
Yes I spend a lot of time in Munich but hardly ever drive A99. Expanding A99 past the South West to A95-A96 would offer some relieve but I believe there was some research to various alternatives but it has been fridged again.
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Old August 18th, 2014, 11:26 PM   #6960
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Yes I spend a lot of time in Munich but hardly ever drive A99. Expanding A99 past the South West to A95-A96 would offer some relieve but I believe there was some research to various alternatives but it has been fridged again.
The bulk of holiday traffic uses A99 East, the "Ostumfahrung". That is where the congestions are. Coming from Nürnberg and heading towards Salzburg or Innsbruck there aren't that many alternatives for those who don't know the area. I do know the area, so coming from Nürnberg I head towards the airport and cut across via Markt Schwaben, Ebersberg and Bad Ailbing, only adding 10 mins to the journey as if the motorway is running normal. All minor B and L roads.
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