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Old December 21st, 2014, 10:45 AM   #7341
MichiH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Unless this madness will be stopped by the ECJ beforehand...
Mr. Dobrindt claims it is EU conform.

Expertise (University Bonn): http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anl...ublicationFile.
Expert's opinion about Mrs. Bulc's objection: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anl...ublicationFile.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 11:25 AM   #7342
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Old December 21st, 2014, 01:41 PM   #7343
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Will this vignette system have short term options like a day or a week?

If Germany cut its fuel taxes slightly, more visitors might fill up there instead of Luxembourg or Poland, thus collecting more revenue from them and less from the locals, which might be a similar overall effect. So this toll might be viewed as a way to prop up a tariff difference.

Mind you, I can't lecture on the subject, given the high price of diesel in the UK, such that some visiting lorries have extra fuel tanks, and I fill up in Luxembourg and/or France on the way home.

Last edited by andy5; December 21st, 2014 at 01:51 PM.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 02:33 PM   #7344
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Originally Posted by andy5 View Post
Will this vignette system have short term options like a day or a week?
Short term yes, but only 10 days or 2 month. You can buy the vignette online.

Quote:
Halter von nicht in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland zugelassenen Pkw und Wohnmobilen können zwischen einer sich ebenfalls an den spezifischen Fahrzeugeigenschaften bemessenden Jahresvignette oder einer Kurzzeitvignette zum Pauschalpreis von 10 Euro (10 Tage) oder 22 Euro (2 Monate) wählen. Der Erwerb ist im Internet oder an Einbuchungsstellen, z. B. an Tankstellen, möglich. (source; page 2)
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Originally Posted by andy5 View Post
If Germany cut its fuel taxes slightly
Not planned.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 07:38 PM   #7345
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€ 10 for 10 days is very reasonable, IMO, especially compared to road tolls in many other European countries.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 08:40 PM   #7346
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The annual vignette price structure is very complex to avoid having German motorist pay a different rate than they do today.

If I understand correctly (annual vignette);

* petrol: € 2 per 100 cc, max € 130
* diesel: € 5 per 100 cc, max € 130

For the common euro 4 and 5 engines.

Can you also order the annual vignette at gas stations as a foreign driver? I've read previously that you can only order vignettes at gas stations at fixed prices (i.e. € 10, € 22 and € 130), in which case small cars would have to pay much more (€ 130) than a vignette based on engine size. For example my 1.2 L petrol car would cost € 24 for an annual vignette.

I also wonder how they are going to enforce the annual vignette among foreigners. Do they have mobile access to engine size data? Enforcing the 10-day and 2-month vignette would be easy as it doesn't involve vehicle details other than the license plate.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 09:03 PM   #7347
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See page 4.

German vehicle owners will be contacted automatically:

Quote:
Halter von im Inland zugelassenen Pkw oder Wohnmobilen müssen künftig eine Infrastrukturabgabe entrichten, die sich nach den spezifischen Fahrzeugeigenschaften bemisst. Der entsprechende Bescheid wird für bereits zugelassene Fahrzeuge automatisch durch das Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt zugestellt. Bei Neuzulassung eines abgabepflichtigen Fahrzeugs muss bei der nach Landesrecht für die Kraftfahrzeugzulassung zuständigen Behörde – analog zum Verfahren bei der Kraftfahrzeugsteuer - eine Ermächtigung zum Einzug der Infrastrukturabgabe erteilt werden.
Foreign vehicle owners:

Quote:
Halter von nicht in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland zugelassenen Pkw oder Wohnmobilen sind zunächst nur auf Bundesautobahnen abgabepflichtig. Sie können zwischen einer Jahresvignette, deren Preis sich nach den spezifischen Fahrzeugeigenschaften bemisst, und einer Zweitmonats- bzw. Zehntagesvignette
zum Pauschalpreis von 22 bzw. 10 Euro wählen. Der Erwerb ist im Internet und an
Einbuchungsstellen, z. B. an Tankstellen, möglich. Hierfür müssen die Nutzer ihr Fahrzeugkennzeichen sowie beim Erwerb von Jahresvignetten die erforderlichen Merkmale des Fahrzeugs angeben.
You must tell your data like license number, car's characteristics,... (see page 14, list of stored data).

Quote:
Das Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt darf zum Zweck der Erhebung der Infrastrukturabgabe nachfolgende Daten erheben, verarbeiten und nutzen:
1. Höhe der festgesetzten Infrastrukturabgabe,
2. Zeitraum, für den die Infrastrukturabgabe festgesetzt wurde,
3. Ort und Zeit der Entrichtung der Infrastrukturabgabe,
4. Belegnummer/Kassenzeichen zum Zahlungsvorgang,
5. Kennzeichen des Kraftfahrzeugs inklusive Nationalitätenkennzeichen,
6. Hubraum, Emissionsklasse und Antriebsart des Kraftfahrzeugs, bei Kraftfahrzeugen im Sinne des § 1 Absatz 1 Nummer 2 mit besonderer Zweckbestimmung als Wohnmobil das zulässige Gesamtgewicht,
7. Zahlungsstatus,
8. Klasse und Aufbauart im Sinne des Anhangs II der Richtlinie 2007/46/EG,
9. Ausnahmetatbestände und Vergünstigungen nach § 2,
10. Ausnahmetatbestände und Vergünstigungen nach dem Kraftfahrzeugsteuergesetz.
Cars and campers are mentioned only (M class). I've no idea if motorbikes are concerned too. Electric vehicles are excluded.

The law is just a draft, so........ Wait and see.....
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Old December 21st, 2014, 10:41 PM   #7348
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I got the strong feeling this project will fail bitterly. The problem is: If German motorist get the vehicle tax back when they purchse a vignette, the same right will apply to all EU car owners. Knwoing the incompetence of conservative and populist politicaisn like Dobrindt, exactly that will haben just to avoid admitting that the whole idea is flawed.

If they want money, they just should say so. But they should avoid the "Germans don't haf to pay because they are better zan eferybody else!"
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Old December 21st, 2014, 10:49 PM   #7349
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Wouldn't German motorists just "not pay tax" in the first place (e.g. tax is 100 EUR cheaper, and vignette costs 100 EUR)? I find the EU argument difficult to justify unless it is arranged in some very weird way. I still hope it dies though
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Old December 21st, 2014, 11:05 PM   #7350
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Well I would think it's fair if the roads are worth paying for. Today I drove A52 and A40, Essen - Venlo. The asphalt quality is terrible. With rain and no lighting, it's actually downright dangerous. I missed the A57 exit and almost crashed into a barrier because the 'ausfahrt' was too short and I couldn't see it properly because of the reflective asphalt (rain) and limited visibility
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Old December 21st, 2014, 11:10 PM   #7351
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I must agree, there are some parts of the network in a really bad shape.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 11:15 PM   #7352
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Your argument has no sense, although you are 100% right.
What do I mean? German car owners need not to pay. It is very, very strict, that German tax payer may not be more charged as now. So it's only foreigners that pay. And why must foreigners pay? Not for using the motorways but because "Germans must pay in Austria so in exchange for that Germany forces Austrians to pay in Germany." And the same for the Czech Republic, Switzerland, actually all neighbors of Bavaria.
And don't forget the in the original idea not olny motorways should have been tolled but the whole German road network, the 2.5 m wide unpaved pathes included.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 11:27 PM   #7353
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In the end the real fight will be on this point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
"Germans must pay in Austria so in exchange for that Germany forces Austrians to pay in Germany." And the same for the Czech Republic, Switzerland, actually all neighbors of Bavaria.
Do, in any of these countries (we can fit also Italy and France in there), residents receive any substantial discount to which a German citizen cannot have access?


And please (I'm not referring to any specific forumer) leave outside of this thread all Dobrint's crap about the fact that this is not designed as a discount for Germans... the final price tag tells a different story.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 11:38 PM   #7354
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Do, in any of these countries (we can fit also Italy and France in there), residents receive any substantial discount to which a German citizen cannot have access?.
No (as far as I know).
However I expect Austria and some other nations introducing some special toll for Germans. And the we'll have the great toll war. Not quite a bright future for Europe.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 12:22 AM   #7355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Your argument has no sense, although you are 100% right.
What do I mean? German car owners need not to pay. It is very, very strict, that German tax payer may not be more charged as now. So it's only foreigners that pay. And why must foreigners pay? Not for using the motorways but because "Germans must pay in Austria so in exchange for that Germany forces Austrians to pay in Germany." And the same for the Czech Republic, Switzerland, actually all neighbors of Bavaria.
And don't forget the in the original idea not olny motorways should have been tolled but the whole German road network, the 2.5 m wide unpaved pathes included.
But the Germans have to pay this specific tax/vignette same as others. Just - their own local tax that they only have to pay now, is reduced - basically implementing Oesterreicher system. No?
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 12:32 AM   #7356
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
But the Germans have to pay this specific tax/vignette same as others. Just - their own local tax that they only have to pay now, is reduced - basically implementing Oesterreicher system. No?
no, in Austria everybody has to pay the same value only for motorways, like in other countrys, like other countrys no tax reduction

in Germany is planned that Germans not have to pay, big different, but this is the third "solution" and this one is also not really safe, i think the EJC/EuGH will kill it

1. Non Germans have to pay -> discremating EU citizens which is not allowed

2. All have to pay for all roads, legal but this would kill a lot of short shopping tourismus across the boarder and this will kill al lot of economy

3. Non Germans have to pay for motorways, Germans have to pay for all roads ( necassary that everybody in germany buy a toll "sticker" and the reduction of the tax dont create negative income)

-> but the actual number 3 is a discremination of German, because the have to pay toll for every road, Austrian, Dänes, French, .... only motorways


->EJC / EuGH will kill it
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 05:41 AM   #7357
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Yes but in most countries their citizens have to pay road tax anyway. In Austria we pay a hell of a lot of road tax PLUS motorway vignette. In Germany they pay road tax but NOT for a vignette. There's the big difference. I assume the tax is not going to go up for Germans so they pay nothing more, nothing less. Everything stays the same for them, but something is changing for foreigners, hence it's discrimination.

Your last comment is not true, because in countries where toll applies, it applies to both its own citizens and visitors. So everybody wins. (or loses, depends which way you look at it I suppose... )
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 11:00 AM   #7358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian_AT View Post

3. Non Germans have to pay for motorways, Germans have to pay for all roads ( necassary that everybody in germany buy a toll "sticker" and the reduction of the tax dont create negative income)

-> but the actual number 3 is a discremination of German, because the have to pay toll for every road, Austrian, Dänes, French, .... only motorways


->EJC / EuGH will kill it
afaik it is ok for a State to discriminate against its own citizens, just not against other EU-citizens.
For instance German breweries have to follow stricter German laws if they want to sell their product as 'Beer' in Germany.
Exception: Beers for export and export brews sold in germany.
Foreign breweries can sell their beer as beer in germany as long as they follow their national (dutch,...) laws regarding what is considered beer there (allowed ingredients and other regulations).
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 03:29 PM   #7359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Mr. Dobrindt claims it is EU conform.
The fun thing about the ECJ is that their decisions often have been completely surprising even for experts. I'm still having hope that they will stop the creation of this completely pointless bureaucracy monster in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
However I expect Austria and some other nations introducing some special toll for Germans.
This definitely won't happen because it would be a clear violation of the EU treaties (you can't impose different tolls based on the origin of individuals from other EU countries).


If you would be discriminated as a citizen while your country grants others (EU foreigners) more rights you have a damn good chance to get justice in German courts although there might not be a specific rule on this I suppose. Furthermore politicians have to take negative effects on future election results in account which should prevent such stupid ideas anyways.
The beer issue is a very specific case nevertheless.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 04:31 PM   #7360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Do they have mobile access to engine size data?
You are required to carry documentation for your car when driving in Germany.
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