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Old December 28th, 2014, 12:19 PM   #7401
Road_UK
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Quote:
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I live west of Würzburg. Can't remember ever recognized an unmarked police vehicle on A3....... Maybe I drive too decent (can't believe )... But I've heard and read about it. Yes, BMW's.... WÜ or M license plate?
North of Munich along the A9 and A3 they are usually marked. Also a lot of Zoll (customs) vehicles parked up at lay-by's along the A3 between Nürnberg and Würzburg, looking at traffic waiting for something suspicious to pass by. Had to deal with them on a number of occasions, they love British vans.

Between Munich and both Kufstein and Salzburg there are a lot of unmarked BMW's almost exclusively with RO (Rosenheim) plates. Even at Salzburg border, although the region belongs to the TS (Traunstein) kreis.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #7402
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But it means that if foreigners buy fuel when they visit, they are already paying a share, and roughly pro rata to their amount of road use. If I filled the car up with fuel one time in 400 or 600 km of motorway in Germany that would collect more money in duty and tax than a €10 short stay vignette.
I can drive more than 600km without refueling.

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If this new scheme proposal is only intended to collect more from foreigners, and if they don't consider collection via fuel taxes to be already an adequate method to do so, why not?
The route through Germany is less than 100km . There's no need for foreigners to refuel in Germany.
I can also do that, 800 to 1000 km even while towing, or over 1200 km without, 1500 on the longest tankful.

So I can fill up at Turnhout and reach Poland, or in Luxembourg and reach Austria or even Slovakia or Hungary.

And that's my point. I agree with you.

If someone goes on a family visit for 2 or 3 weeks, they are bound to fill up in Germany if they do a series of small day trips around the area they are staying, so they will have made a contribution in fuel taxes, but someone on just a day visit or crossing can avoid paying the higher fuel price in Germany.

So if the Germans want to collect more from visitors, and some already are paying through fuel taxes, then effectively the main new target is the shortest stay visit. And the only reason some of those aren't making a contribution is because they are careful about the price of fuel and happened to know in advance which countries are cheaper. Not everyone does this.

So there's a potential line of reasoning that the whole scheme can be philosophically reduced to solving a problem that is smaller than they think it is, and originally arises from a tariff difference.

Free use for German residents, while charging a visitor €10 for 100 or 200 km, has to be seen as unfair.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:21 PM   #7403
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But it means that if foreigners buy fuel when they visit
IF they buy fuel. But usually they don't.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:23 PM   #7404
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Not to the UK they won't unless the driver of the offending vehicle has been stopped by the police. The UK doesn't share it's car registration index with other European countries.
Actually no one is interested in British cars. The primary goal is to let Austrian cars pay, secondary is Switzerland and the Czech Republic.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #7405
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That'll please the Dutch, they're being let off with their bloody caravans
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #7406
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Exactly. And Dutchman...
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #7407
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Free use for German residents, while charging a visitor €10 for 100 or 200 km, has to be seen as unfair.
Yes, it IS unfair. There is hardly any one who doesn't think so. The main goal of the toll is not collecting money but to be unfair towards Austrian, Swiss and Czech drivers.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:30 PM   #7408
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No, not the Dutch. You're too late my friend MichiH. I'm going over to the Dutch section now and tell them the good news...
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:32 PM   #7409
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IF they buy fuel. But usually they don't.
A popular myth. Yes, in theory you can fill up in Poland and drive to the Netherlands without refueling (thus paying fuel taxes) in Germany.

However, according to ADAC, foreign cars pay 195% of their cost to infrastructure through fuel taxes in Germany.

Tatsächlich stellen Ausländer übers Jahr nur 5,2 Prozent des Pkw-Verkehrs auf Autobahnen. Und da sie meist bei uns tanken, erbringen sie über die Mineralölsteuer bereits jetzt 195 Prozent der auf sie entfallenden Infrastrukturkosten.

A typical € 60 refuel brings more taxes in than an annual vignette for many cars...
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:37 PM   #7410
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I've managed Holland-Austria without refuelling in Germany ONCE using a exceptionally economical French registered Renault Trafic van.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:44 PM   #7411
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bloody caravans
It was snowing yesterday afternoon (>10cm). A lot of cars with summer tires etcetera... Chaos... Congestion...

45km congestion b/n Aschaffenburg and Marktheidenfeld towards Würzburg. Traffic info said driver loose about 2 hours. In additional, a 6km congestion near Würzburg (30km on A6 west of Nuremberg, A8, A96,...). All congestions towards south/east - towards Alps...

But there was one exception, A3 Wertheim-Rohrbrunn, the eastern Spessart ascending slope, towards Frankfurt. A caravan driver got stopped on the emergency lane east of Rohrbrunn. He couldn't driveaway. He uncoupled his caravan which trundled on a snow heap. He drove his car to the rest area Rohrbrunn (T+R Spessart) and... Waited. He called police after two hours and asked "where the hell is my caravan, I'm at the rest area and still waiting. Please bring my caravan now!"

The rescue vassels have no tow-bar for caravans. The congestion took about 2 1/2 hours.....
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #7412
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Yesterday has been horrible in Germany and Austria. It was snowing all over mid-Germany and all the roads were clogged as it was the first Ab- und Anreise Tag to the ski resorts. Something we can look forward to every Saturday now until spring. Took me 4 hours to get from Munich to my house even using B-roads. Normally it takes me 2 hours using Autobahn.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #7413
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A popular myth. Yes, in theory you can fill up in Poland and drive to the Netherlands without refueling (thus paying fuel taxes) in Germany.
The toll is because of the Austrians. It's an election pledge by CSU party which only exists in Bavaria. Bavarians have to pay toll in Austria but Austrians do not have to pay toll in Bavaria. Austrians just drive 100km on Bavarian Autobahns on their way from Salzburg (Austria) to Kufstein (Austria).
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Old December 28th, 2014, 02:01 PM   #7414
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Is that Austria also getting their own back charging Germans travelling from Lindau to Kiefersfelden vignette AND Arlberg tolls?
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Old December 28th, 2014, 02:07 PM   #7415
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What I can't get is how a very local and marginal problem, as the use of the Deutsches Eck, became such an important issue for the whole Bayern.

Is people in Franconia really so bothered by the Austrians using the A93?
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Old December 28th, 2014, 02:20 PM   #7416
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Is people in Franconia really so bothered by the Austrians using the A93?
Not at all. But CSU party is mainstream in Franconia too (> 50%)... Most of CSU politicians are from upper Bavaria (Oberbayern, around Munich) and toll was their (main? - I don't remember but it was the only CSU topic in media) election pledge. CSU/CDU is also called "Union" - which means that they are always in coalition - and of course, CSU got their pledge into the coaltion agreement. But it's common to complain about toll in Austria, Switzerland,... Germans love to complain... Are Franconians really bothered... I don't think so. People around me love to complain about Dutch caravans...

In general, media and folk like to follow these kind of political gags / nonsense .
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:48 PM   #7417
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Why do they complain about caravans?

Germany has 80 or 100 kph limits for trailers and caravans. The 100 seems to be only available after a TUeV test of vehicle and trailer, then apply to the local registration office for a sticker. This might be too tricky for visitors to bother.

Belgium 120, France 130

If caravans are causing hold-ups by being too slow, maybe it's due to the speed limit being unnecessarily low.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:52 PM   #7418
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They're not complaining as much about caravans but the number plate behind them which are usually yellow
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #7419
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Why do they complain about caravans?
Because they are Dutch .

Edit: Road_UK was faster and is absolutely right .
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #7420
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Of course in reality the Dutch and Germans are the best and strongest of friends
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