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Old December 28th, 2014, 04:02 PM   #7421
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Yep, except on roads, football,...
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Old December 28th, 2014, 04:05 PM   #7422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Yep, except on roads, football,...
Two subjects in one :lol



(Dutch holidaymakers with caravan vs German nanny)

It's not even off-topic...
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Old December 28th, 2014, 04:21 PM   #7423
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I probably saw that video 20 times here on SSC
Anyway this is nice video:
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Old December 29th, 2014, 07:17 PM   #7424
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Winter on German Autobahns:


from trafictube.ro
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my clinched highways
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Old December 30th, 2014, 01:36 PM   #7425
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Traffic data (2014/15 report)

- PDF version
- Excel version
- pocket book (62.50 €)

page 163: number of road fatilities (2013: 428 on Autobahns, 882 on B roads, 951 on state's roads, 424 on district roads, 654 on rural roads)
page 174-177: Truck transit (EU) on German roads (1994-2011)
page 316: length of motorway network (EU) 2005 to 2011
page 317: length of road network (EU) 2005 to 2011
page 325: number of road fatilities (EU) 2007 to 2012
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Old December 30th, 2014, 10:07 PM   #7426
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People have to understand that hatred for the Dutch basterds (basically nothing more than Germans with funny accents and weird smoking habits anyway) is one of the glues that bonds the fragmented Germanlands together. It's nothing personal.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 10:12 PM   #7427
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Not all Dutch vacationers are just transiting through, as a matter of fact Germany is the most popular country for Dutch to go on vacation, with 17.2% of all foreign vacations (excluding business trips and other trips).

In 2013, 3.2 million Dutch went on vacation in Germany, beating out France with 2.7 million vacations.

But caravans are annoying, that's why I try to avoid to drive on Fridays and Saturdays in July/August in Germany (or France).
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Old December 30th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #7428
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I was caught behind a large truck on US 206 in New Jersey at 1:30 p.m. on Christmas Day. I had an urge to ask him what he was doing working at that time. (At least he eventually pulled over.)

Sometimes, I think a German-style Sunday truck ban wouldn't hurt here....
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Old December 31st, 2014, 05:36 AM   #7429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Not all Dutch vacationers are just transiting through, as a matter of fact Germany is the most popular country for Dutch to go on vacation, with 17.2% of all foreign vacations (excluding business trips and other trips).

In 2013, 3.2 million Dutch went on vacation in Germany, beating out France with 2.7 million vacations.

But caravans are annoying, that's why I try to avoid to drive on Fridays and Saturdays in July/August in Germany (or France).
And there is the answer. On the motorway the Dutch can do little harm as long as they mingle with the trucks, but once they get OFF the motorway, then god help us. Although sightseeing Germans are just as annoying and in a lot of cases even more annoying, because they drive well below the speed limit, and they'll take people tailgating from behind by surprise with their sudden braking because they see a beautiful butterfly somewhere. And that's without caravans!
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 11:59 AM   #7430
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Poland:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
Summary of new roads opened in 2014.
287 km of A or S class motorways
169 km of other roads (town bypasses etc.)
Total 456 km
Germany:

68 km of Autobahn or expressway-like roads
73 km of toher roads (town bypasses etc.)*
Total 141km

In addtion, about 79km roads have been upgraded (e.g. 2x2 --> 2x3 or 2+1 widening).

*without state's roads (L or St), district roads (K) and rural roads
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:53 PM   #7431
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Talking about announcements of authorities and politicians.....

Status of A20 extension in Schleswig-Holstein:

May 2009 version:


November 2014 version (click for zooming):


May 2009/November 2014:
Section 1: completion: June 2009 / opened on 28th July 2009
Section 2: completion: 2010 / opened on 21st December 2009
Section 3: plan approval order: 2010, groundbreaking: 2010 / plan approval order: 2016, groundbreaking depends on legal force
Section 4: plan approval order: 2010, groundbreaking: 2011 depending on funding / plan approval order: 2016, groundbreaking depends on legal force and funding
Section 5: plan approval order: 2010, groundbreaking: 2011 depending on funding / plan approval order: 2016, groundbreaking >= 2017
Section 6: plan approval order: 2010, groundbreaking: 2011 depending on funding / plan approval order: 2016, groundbreaking >= 2017
Section 7: plan approval order: 2010, groundbreaking: 2011 depending on funding / plan approval order: 2015, groundbreaking >= 2017
Section 8: plan approval order: 2011, groundbreaking: 2011 depending on funding / plan approval order: December 2014, groundbreaking >= 2017

---------------------------------

Section 8 contains the new Elbe tunnel (length: 5.7km; costs: 1.2 billion €). The plan approval order of the Schleswig-Holstein part was passed on Tuesday. The plan approval order of the Lower Saxony part is announced to be passed in the coming weeks.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 02:00 PM   #7432
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I wonder whether they will build the fixed link across the Elbe (Elbquerung) since there is a "cost explosion" and funding still is unclear.
Both the Warnow tunnel and the Herrentunnel didn't come up to expectations. I assume the tunnel would be used much less, because Bremen/Bremerhaven already has a good connection via the A1. And if there's an eastern bypass of Hamburg for northbound traffic, the A20 will lose much more of its attractiveness due to tolls.

For me as a citizen of Schleswig-Holstein a bypass in the east of Hamburg (A21) is a much more attractive route, too - perhaps combined with the A39.
Also I am getting the sense that the transport sector is also more interested in the A21 bypass, but that's nothing I could prove. (A21 till Bad Segeberg and then using the A20 to get back to the A7. So imho it's enough to build sector 3 and 4 of the A20)

Or is there something I overlook?
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 03:10 PM   #7433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
I wonder whether they will build the fixed link across the Elbe (Elbquerung) since there is a "cost explosion" and funding still is unclear.
Schleswig-Holstein wants to found a company like the Danish Femarn A/S but I've no idea if the Federal government will agree.

I think the costs will be much higher than 1.2 billion € because the building costs will increase each year (and I don't believe the works will begin "soon" = 2017).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
Both the Warnow tunnel and the Herrentunnel didn't come up to expectations. I assume the tunnel would be used much less
I'm not sure if the expectations are really relevant. The traffic predictions of the past 10..20 years are generally too high (but they were much too low decades ago, e.g. in the 1980th). I think the "wrong" predictions are (often) caused by incomplete implementation of the "road network" (A20 east is an exception, the prediction was just too high).

The benefit-cost rate is important. I think it's still > 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
because Bremen/Bremerhaven already has a good connection via the A1.
Well, it features 2x3 lanes now. But you have to pass Hamburg which is still a desaster (A1 and A7). It was announced that the A20 should relieve Hamburg during the 2x3/2x4 widening of A7 but A20 is too much delayed - and the A7 upgrade has recently been started .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
And if there's an eastern bypass of Hamburg for northbound traffic, the A20 will lose much more of its attractiveness due to tolls.
A20 and A21 traffic flow is different. A20 is a connection from the Netherlands to Scandinavia and (Northern) Poland (west-east or west-north). A21 is a connection from Scandinavia to southern Germany (north-south).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
For me as a citizen of Schleswig-Holstein a bypass in the east of Hamburg (A21) is a much more attractive route, too - perhaps combined with the A39.
I agree. But A20 has still a higher (political) priority. I think priorities should not be changed too often because no road will be built in the end of the day (see Czech Republic). The A21 planning progress would take very long and the A20 planning effort of the past 10+ years would be useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
Also I am getting the sense that the transport sector is also more interested in the A21 bypass, but that's nothing I could prove. (A21 till Bad Segeberg and then using the A20 to get back to the A7. So imho it's enough to build sector 3 and 4 of the A20)

Or is there something I overlook?
I think, A20 should be built up to the A7 anyway (~30km, ~275 million €**). No discussion.

If the Elbe tunnel will be built (~12km, 1.2 billion €), the entire A20 b/n A27 and A7 should be built asap too (~40km north of Elbe, ~400 million €; ~77km in Lower Saxony, the announced 12km Bremervörde section costs are ~125 million €) b/c the Elbe tunnel does not make any sense without distributor roads. The remaining 15km A26 section b/n A20 and Stade should be completed too but it cannot replace A20 up to A27.

**The costs increase b/c the construction begin is delayed and will also be delayed more and more.

I think A20 will not be completed up to the A27 before 2030 and A21/A39 could not be completed until 2040/50. I think it's better to get A20 within 15..20 years than A21/A39 eventually........

Wie war das noch mal mit der Taube auf'm Dach? Lieber 'ne Stumme im Bett als 'ne Taube auf'm Dach, oder?
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:21 PM   #7434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Schleswig-Holstein wants to found a company like the Danish Femarn A/S but I've no idea if the Federal government will agree.

I think the costs will be much higher than 1.2 billion € because the building costs will increase each year (and I don't believe the works will begin "soon" = 2017).
That's what I read, too. I think if there's no other solution for funding, the federal government will agree, because without a clarified funding the whole project will be on hold, even if the building process won't start soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The benefit-cost rate is important. I think it's still > 1.
[...]

I agree. But A20 has still a higher (political) priority. I think priorities should not be changed too often because no road will be built in the end of the day (see Czech Republic). The A21 planning progress would take very long and the A20 planning effort of the past 10+ years would be useless.
Of course the BCR is important, but on the over hand I assume that the price-performance ratio is very low. But as you said planning an eastern bypass would take too long.
Prioritize the A20 (+ ex-A22) link over the A21 was a huge mistake, but you are absolutely right that reprioritizing would make it worse. (I didn't consider that)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Well, it features 2x3 lanes now. But you have to pass Hamburg which is still a desaster (A1 and A7). It was announced that the A20 should relieve Hamburg during the 2x3/2x4 widening of A7 but A20 is too much delayed - and the A7 upgrade has recently been started .
Yep that's true, the Elbtunnel in Hamburg is a bottle neck in both directions. I have to pass it every once in a while and during rush-hour you have long time-wasting traffic jams. The A7 construction works around Hamburg compound the situation at the moment.
(If there're no construction works, than the A1 is northbound okay, but southbound there are every day large traffic jams especially on the right lane/truck lane)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
A20 and A21 traffic flow is different. A20 is a connection from the Netherlands to Scandinavia and (Northern) Poland (west-east or west-north). A21 is a connection from Scandinavia to southern Germany (north-south).
I agree, but I think traffic on the A20 as western bypass will abruptly decrease when there's a eastern bypass and the A20 will become a west to north route. So it's then mostly used as a Netherlands - Scandinavia route and not as a real Hamburg bypass.

In addition if there's the A20, then an estern bypass (2x3 lanes) isn't so likely. (I think it's quite no stretch if there will be no A21 b/n Bargteheide and Lüneburg, but an upgraded 2x2 B404(n) without hard shoulder (RQ20).)
But if there is an A21 eastern bypass, then the whole situation in Hamburg will calm down and will return to normal. The current problem is the bottleneck of Hamburg and I wouldn't consider the A20 Elbtunnel a really good bypass solution. (Although it's the only solution we can get in near future (<20 years))


Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
If the Elbe tunnel will be built (~12km, 1.2 billion €), the entire A20 b/n A27 and A7 should be built asap too (~40km north of Elbe, ~400 million €; ~77km in Lower Saxony, the announced 12km Bremervörde section costs are ~125 million €) b/c the Elbe tunnel does not make any sense without distributor roads. The remaining 15km A26 section b/n A20 and Stade should be completed too but it cannot replace A20 up to A27.
I totally agree. If the Elbtunnel is going to be build, the whole A20 must be build. But the funding problem can wreck the Elbtunnel project and would make a full A20 useless.
The AADT between A7 and A23 will be too low without the Elbtunnel. The remaining parts of the A26 should be build. Although a A20 in Lower Saxony without the Elbtunnel is on ther other hand als no good ease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
I think A20 will not be completed up to the A27 before 2030 and A21/A39 could not be completed until 2040/50. I think it's better to get A20 within 15..20 years than A21/A39 eventually........
Come to think about it, it's true. I'm just worried that the Elbtunnel project could be an extraordinary loss if ROI was planned with e.g. 30/40 years. There're reasons why winning private investors over is so difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Wie war das noch mal mit der Taube auf'm Dach? Lieber 'ne Stumme im Bett als 'ne Taube auf'm Dach, oder?
Es sind die Schatten der Vergangenheit, die jetzt einen einholen. (Mit einer gesicherten Finanzierung wäre alles auch nicht so dramatisch)
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 05:14 PM   #7435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
(If there're no construction works, than the A1 is northbound okay, but southbound there are every day large traffic jams especially on the right lane/truck lane)
The Fehmarnbelt tunnel is not yet in service.... I guess after completion A1 will be congested northbound too .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
I agree, but I think traffic on the A20 as western bypass will abruptly decrease when there's a eastern bypass and the A20 will become a west to north route. So it's then mostly used as a Netherlands - Scandinavia route and not as a real Hamburg bypass.
Hamburg is relieved anyway if Netherldands-Scandinavia traffic is bypassing Hamburg via A20. I don't think A20 AADT will decrease abruptly because A21/A39 won't be opened at once . I guess A20 AADT will remain on a level which justifies an Autobahn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
In addition if there's the A20, then an estern bypass (2x3 lanes) isn't so likely. (I think it's quite no stretch if there will be no A21 b/n Bargteheide and Lüneburg, but an upgraded 2x2 B404(n) without hard shoulder (RQ20).)
No, it's planned 2x2 with hard shoulders. RQ20 is not most likely.

The northern A21 extension is a mess. It will take many years to complete the damn gap to Kiel. It's not lack of money, it was planned to build the A20. It's lack of planning progress because employees were involved in A7 and are involved in A20 procedures. Money goes to Bavaria now.... (well, I live there, so... )

B404 b/n A1 and A24 is upgraded to 2+1 veeeery slowly. The first section was completed in 2009, 2nd in late 2013 (a bridge was completed two weeks ago), the 3rd and 4th section are still in planning stage (If I remember correct, the plan approval procedures were announced to begin in 2015/16). It will be the first carriageway, adding a 2nd one is further demand.

The begin of the plan approval procedure for the Geesthacht bypass (A25/B5; 10.5km; 90 million €) - A21 will be routed on a short part too - is delayed to 2015 because they forgot the A21 connection (source) near B404 interchange (A25 section - 2x2 - ends there).

source: Bergedorfer Zeitung

A39 planning progess in Lower Saxony is also quite slow.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
But if there is an A21 eastern bypass, then the whole situation in Hamburg will calm down and will return to normal. The current problem is the bottleneck of Hamburg and I wouldn't consider the A20 Elbtunnel a really good bypass solution. (Although it's the only solution we can get in near future (<20 years))
Agree .

A map of A21 (click for zooming):



blue = in service; red = urgent demand (of BVWP 2003), mostly in early planning stage; yellow = further demand (of BVWP 2003).
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 05:16 PM   #7436
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When can we expect the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015?
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 05:19 PM   #7437
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2017.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 05:26 PM   #7438
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proof (schedule, January 2014 version)

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Old January 2nd, 2015, 06:25 PM   #7439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The Fehmarnbelt tunnel is not yet in service.... I guess after completion A1 will be congested northbound too .
True but I assume it wouldn't be as bad as southbound. (I can't find any AADT for the different directions resp. data I found are for both directions)

I also think the AADT wouldn't drop that an Autobahn isn't necessary, but if the tunnel should have an ROI payed by tolls, then it could be fatal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The northern A21 extension is a mess. It will take many years to complete the damn gap to Kiel. It's not lack of money, it was planned to build the A20. It's lack of planning progress because employees were involved in A7 and are involved in A20 procedures. Money goes to Bavaria now.... (well, I live there, so... )
Yep I know and the lack of planning progress leads to a lack of money, because other projects are faster and therefore they are preferred. (Which is better than having the money not spend )

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
B404 b/n A1 and A24 is upgraded to 2+1 veeeery slowly.
Yep like the growth of the A21.

In general I think the problem is, even if there will be free capacity in the future, the A21 south of Bargteheide won't be build soon and I apprehend that if there's one bypass, the other one will get very low priority.
If they build the A21, it won't be RQ20, that's true. But The remaining part of the A21 is only further need (weiterer Bedarf) and so they still could axe the A21 and make a cheap RQ20. (Sections of the current A21 also have no hard shoulder, too. So a cheap solution).
You know it's politics and therefore I don't think that my fear is without reason. (Some could say they willfully overlooked the B5/A21 connection)
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Old January 3rd, 2015, 04:43 PM   #7440
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Does anybody know anything about the Kiesselbachtunnel-Heckenstallertunnel complex on Munich ring (at the end of A 95)? A friend of mine lives nearby and told me it seems to be completed for a while now but it's still closed...
The tunnels will be opened for traffic in the 2nd half-year 2015 (I think deadline was November 2015). Final works will be completed by late 2017.
The B2R section in Munich will be opened on a Saturday in late July 2015 (source). I guess it's 25th July 2015.
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