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Old January 9th, 2015, 02:00 AM   #7461
Wilhem275
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Well, the idea is not wrong per se. City centers are points of concentrations of large number of vehicles, and it's not absurd to pose a border to limit this concentration.

The actual problem, in my opinion, is how this limit was designed. The current system -probably for cultural reasons- was generated with a mix of dumb bureaucracy and lack of practical sense, resulting in a monster not really effective but extremely inflexible.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 02:13 AM   #7462
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But it's a large number... and foreign cars are a trivial number. Even 10 cars blowing black smoke isn't going to make a notable difference in the air quality...
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Old January 9th, 2015, 02:40 AM   #7463
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This is what I mean when I say that the system lacks practical sense. There are many possible exceptions which would have not created a relevant distortion of the results (even if summed up together), while making the whole much less oppressive.

On the other side, there is a principle of equality which will fail if attacked by too much flexibility.

I have a personal bias for one of these sides, so I can't judge. My perception is just that this system is political bullshit targeting and negatively affecting the Germans themselves

If you ask me for a solution, I would insist on an absolute ban of cars in certain areas, and no bureaucratic complications elsewhere. To me the problem is of space and not (no more, at least) of pollution.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 03:22 PM   #7464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
Even 10 cars blowing black smoke isn't going to make a notable difference in the air quality...
A small share of older cars can cause a large share of all emissions. For example, a 1995 diesel car emits 28 times as much particles than a 2010 diesel car. So 5,000 older diesel cars emit as much as 140,000 recent diesel cars.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 05:31 PM   #7465
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If you ask me for a solution, I would insist on an absolute ban of cars in certain areas, and no bureaucratic complications elsewhere. To me the problem is of space and not (no more, at least) of pollution.
ZTL in city centers, that would be fun
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Old January 9th, 2015, 08:06 PM   #7466
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You mean purchasing online and getting the vignette by mail, or that you dont need vignette and just register car plate?
It's an E vignette. No sticker.
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Old January 10th, 2015, 10:54 AM   #7467
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While older cars may emit more, there are decreasing numbers of them still on the roads.

I read that in one city that was just changing requirement from yellow to green sticker, only about 2% of the remaining cars are worse than green sticker.

This means that emissions should be improving merely due to the gradual introduction of new cars, without any enforcement of the coloured badge on the windscreen.

Whether air quality improvement is actually happening is another point.

In London they are complaining about measured pollution levels still being bad, but not doing much about it. Taxis buses and coaches have been exempt from the latest changes in equipment. And emissions from buildings due to heating oil. Now the mayor is talking about banning all diesel cars in a few years time. Perhaps taxis will still be exempt. If they switch to electric cars, with their blatant marketing lie about zero emissions, this just moves the pollution to the power station.
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Old January 10th, 2015, 11:10 AM   #7468
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A20 Elbtunnel

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Section 8: plan approval order: 2011, groundbreaking: 2011 depending on funding / plan approval order: December 2014, groundbreaking >= 2017

Section 8 contains the new Elbe tunnel (length: 5.7km; costs: 1.2 billion €). The plan approval order of the Schleswig-Holstein part was passed on Tuesday. The plan approval order of the Lower Saxony part is announced to be passed in the coming weeks.
The spokesman of the Federal Ministry of Transport confirmed that Minster Dobrindt wants to get EU funding (Juncker's 315 billion € investment plan) for the Elbtunnel. The tunnel is built as PPP. Costs: 1.5 billion € (source).
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Old January 10th, 2015, 03:57 PM   #7469
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Originally Posted by andy5 View Post
While older cars may emit more, there are decreasing numbers of them still on the roads.

I read that in one city that was just changing requirement from yellow to green sticker, only about 2% of the remaining cars are worse than green sticker.

This means that emissions should be improving merely due to the gradual introduction of new cars, without any enforcement of the coloured badge on the windscreen.

Whether air quality improvement is actually happening is another point.

In London they are complaining about measured pollution levels still being bad, but not doing much about it. Taxis buses and coaches have been exempt from the latest changes in equipment. And emissions from buildings due to heating oil. Now the mayor is talking about banning all diesel cars in a few years time. Perhaps taxis will still be exempt. If they switch to electric cars, with their blatant marketing lie about zero emissions, this just moves the pollution to the power station.
Talking of London...I'll take my question to the UK thread.
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Old January 10th, 2015, 10:23 PM   #7470
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I read that in one city that was just changing requirement from yellow to green sticker, only about 2% of the remaining cars are worse than green sticker.
This system is an absurdity of the bureaucrats: what about if someone has a rare historical collection car and wants to drive into the city for the biggest pleasures of our eyes?

After encouraging for decades very dirty diesel cars, against "cleaner" gazoline and gaz operated cars; these same politics and bureaucrats have found the same "magical" solution as always .
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Old January 11th, 2015, 09:10 AM   #7471
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what about if someone has a rare historical collection car and wants to drive into the city
Historical cars (cars older than 30 years) can get a "H-Kennzeichen", so they are allowed to drive into the city.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 10:58 PM   #7472
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Here we have quite interesting national road, B49. It consists of motorway-like 2+2 stretches, 1+2 and 1+1 divided parts.

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Old January 12th, 2015, 02:28 AM   #7473
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Autobahn A3: Nürnberg - Regensburg

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Old January 12th, 2015, 06:25 PM   #7474
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Here we have quite interesting national road, B49. It consists of motorway-like 2+2 stretches, 1+2 and 1+1 divided parts.

Thanks. When have you taken it?
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Old January 12th, 2015, 07:53 PM   #7475
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March 2014.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 03:17 AM   #7476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
After encouraging for decades very dirty diesel cars, against "cleaner" gazoline and gaz operated cars; these same politics and bureaucrats have found the same "magical" solution as always .
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The whole tolling scheme is a major inconvenience, every foreigner pays road tax in their own country, which Germans can use for free ( well in the case of the NL anyhow).

Now some people have to pay extra for every country they visit if more countries adopt some stupid toll plan ?

I already found it odd I had to buy a green sticker to enter Berlin, could that 5 euros not be inned through road tax in the first place ? Easy to check you say for emissions? What is to stop people putting ''fake'' green stickers on their old cars ? Chance to get caught is next to zero...

Why isn't there a normal EU wide system where you pay road tax, and no further crappy tolls have to be paid, in whatever country you drive ?
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Ultimately, all EU countries have cars coming from abroad, and its own cars being driven abroad. This is one of those instances where EU should step in solve the mess, like it did a decade ago regarding short-term health care for EU citizens present in other EU country (with introduction of the EHIC).

As cars are interchangeable on regular roads, it is a very reasonable expectation that cross-border traffic is bi-directional (or multi-directional), so each member state should cover its own expenses.

I know this still doesn't solve the issue of countries that use tolls and countries that have higher gas/car taxes, but things should even out at the end of the day.
So basically EU is backtracking on the integration front?

First, due to Schengen agreement we remove stopping on the borders to make travel and exchange of the goods faster, easier and cheaper but then we introduce bureaucratic obstacles to drive across the same borders. Pure madness. I know that UK is thinking about some way of taxing foreign cars, probably more countries will follow.
Soon we'll need to pay 20 different road authorities inside the EU when going on car holiday.
I get depressed when I see how bad some things are managed and how we can fuc*up system that works.

Imagine you had to pay separate toll, or tax or have separate sticker every time you drive from one US state to another. They also have separate highway departments.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 03:20 AM   #7477
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in the US even though separate highway departments, they've somehow managed to make the electronic toll transponder co-operate with each other, so you can drive in other states and the charge goes on your account just like if you were at home, and at the price of local people
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Old January 13th, 2015, 04:48 PM   #7478
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What is the story behind this odd situation at the end of the grade separated section of the B27 in Feuerbach, Stuttgart?

https://goo.gl/maps/vvZqA



I pass it every day on the train and it is usually heavily backed up with traffic. The on-ramp is massively over-engineered, whilst the off-ramp is woefully inadequate. Clearly the road was meant to lead further south towards the river, but does anyone know the exact route that was planned, and if anything will be done to remedy this troublesome spot in the future?
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Old January 14th, 2015, 03:23 PM   #7479
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This (calles "Ohr") would have been part of the so-called "Krailenshaldentrasse", a bypass for the notoriously congested Pragsattel crossroads further south. It obviously was never buildt and there are plans to demolish the ramps.
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Old January 14th, 2015, 03:30 PM   #7480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
So basically EU is backtracking on the integration front?

First, due to Schengen agreement we remove stopping on the borders to make travel and exchange of the goods faster, easier and cheaper but then we introduce bureaucratic obstacles to drive across the same borders. Pure madness. I know that UK is thinking about some way of taxing foreign cars, probably more countries will follow.
Soon we'll need to pay 20 different road authorities inside the EU when going on car holiday.
I get depressed when I see how bad some things are managed and how we can fuc*up system that works.

Imagine you had to pay separate toll, or tax or have separate sticker every time you drive from one US state to another. They also have separate highway departments.
I think you misunderstood my argument.

I'm in favor of a presumption that foreign cars don't need to pay registration or vignette taxes to circulate in other EU countries, because they pay such car-ownership-related taxes back home. Every EU country has some form of taxes and fees like that.

Only accurate use-based charges (also known as road tolls) could be charged to foreigners in the same way they are charged to locals.

So there should be a strict regulation on this. Anything more than a "daily tax" that is equally charged to foreigners and locals should be rejected.

Moreover, there should be an EU-wide protocol for all toll collections in an electronic manner. It doesn't mean a single device, just a common protocol which could then be used by different manufacturers and service providers to churn out their own tag and payment systems. By 2020 at the latest, any toll charging station on highways that have unmanned collection should be compatible with such system.

Finally, I think environmental standards should be attached to such tag as well, and any environmental restriction on cars should use only a common EU standard, based on EURO emission. So this would put an end to the chessboard of local regulations on different cities and what not.
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