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Old February 28th, 2015, 06:52 AM   #7641
Corvinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Ah well, a maximum of 130 euros per year is not the end of the world....
While being against all and any new road tolls, I also see these 130€/yr are about the price of the Hungarian yearly vignette - for a network about 10 times smaller. So indeed it is not an exaggerated amount, and being a maximum, many (newer) cars will get away with less.

Motorcycles, electric cars, vehicles of disabled persons and ambulances would be exempt from the new toll.

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...n-muessen.html

Toll controls shall be carried out by automated electronic random controls of license plates; no physical toll sticker would be delivered.

The article also mentions sanctions in case of non-payment. The first-offense fine would be in a range of up to 150€, thereafter the fine would amount to 260€ (max.) and a yearly toll. The fine shall also be collected from foreign-registered vehicle owners (which I wonder how they plan to realize if the vehicle was not stopped on German territory).
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Old February 28th, 2015, 10:23 AM   #7642
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Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
The fine shall also be collected from foreign-registered vehicle owners (which I wonder how they plan to realize if the vehicle was not stopped on German territory).
Since German car owners may use the motorways free (road tax will be lowered, as it has already several times discussed in this forum), and all German car drivers must pay the toll even if the car does never leave the garage*, the check of foreign cars is the only sense of the toll.

* If you can prove that you have never driven on a motorway, you can get your money back.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 10:55 AM   #7643
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Ok.... The "Spiegel" article says that the European Commission is not amused about (minimum) two issues:

- It's not okay that German car owners have to pay the same like they had to pay for the car tax. There must also be German winner and loser.

Quote:
Um Ausländer nicht zu diskriminieren, so die Brüsseler Sichtweise, "muss es auch unter deutschen Autofahrern Gewinner und Verlierer geben".
- The costs of the short-term vignette is too high. The ten-days vignette costs 10 €, the cheapest annual vignette 20 €. EC has usually said that the annual vignette should cost 8 times compared to the cheapest short-term vignette.

Quote:
Nach Dobrindts Plänen sollen Ausländer Zehntagesvignetten für 10 € erwerben können, die günstigste Jahresvignette soll rund 20 € kosten. Die Kommission hatte in der Vergangenheit die Faustregel aufgestellt, dass eine Jahresvignette rund achtmal so viel kosten muss wie eine Kurzzeitvignette.
According to the latter, the 10-days vignette must cost 2.50 € (I guess administration costs are even higher) or the cheapest annual vignette must cost 80 €. That means, German car owners with low-emission cars should have to pay much more than before. CSU party always promised that Germans do not have to pay more than before!

Nonsensical election pledge...
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Old February 28th, 2015, 11:50 AM   #7644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
While being against all and any new road tolls, I also see these 130€/yr are about the price of the Hungarian yearly vignette - for a network about 10 times smaller.
I doubt if the network length is really relevant. Most people won't drive on most of the Autobahn network in one year anyway. What kind of vignette would the Chinese or American networks require?

From one side, one could argue the proposed toll in Germany is not really expensive compared to traditional distance-based tolling. The cost of the most expensive annual vignette (€ 130) is less than a 1.600 km return trip from the Netherlands to Austria would have otherwise cost you on a French autoroute. And in many cases, the annual vignette is much cheaper (I would have to pay € 24 for my car).

On the other side, one could argue that foreigners drive much less kilometers on the German Autobahn network than Germans, while paying the same rates. When calculated to usage, foreigners would clearly pay much more per driven kilometer than Germans, although the fees are much lower than on toll roads in France, Italy or Spain.

I prefer a vignette over traditional distance-based tolling as there is in France, Italy or Spain. But the best is no tolls of course. I would pay more taxes with one refueling than the annual vignette.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 12:09 PM   #7645
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In my opinion a "toll for foreigners" may not be compared any way with "normal" tolls. The main goal here was not to get money but to force foreigners to pay.
And, as we all know, the initiative came from Bavaria, where many foreigners drive through without filling up, or paying taxes any way.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 01:53 PM   #7646
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And, as we all know, the initiative came from Bavaria, where many foreigners drive through without filling up, or paying taxes any way.
So why they are coming to Bavaria/Germany then - just to see the Chiemsee and go back ? Aren't they really no transactions at all, and therefore no taxes paid at all, no tourism, no consumption, everyone is self imposing an "embargo" against Bavarians and Germans ?
I doubt it! Many people traveling through Bavaria - the center of the world now - and not stooping there, will transit through other Länder as well, will probably stop at some point to fill the tank and buy some things, paying taxes on the way (well, VAT).

Also, living in a popular transiting country, Switzerland, where gasoline used to be cheaper than in neighboring country, many people filled their tank here through their transit, but now its cheaper to buy fuels by our neighbors > increased tax revenues for them, including Germany. However, I never heard of any plans to install tolls "only for foreigners" as it would be discriminating even here, and in spite of a sure loss in taxes revenues (likewise from Swiss residents as well) .
So I don't see how will they loss further money, as Germany is a popular transiting and touristic nation too.

It's also funny, how some Bavarian "egocentric" politicians could have imposed this idea to the entire nation .
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Old February 28th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #7647
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
So why they are coming to Bavaria/Germany then - just to see the Chiemsee and go back? Aren't they really no transactions at all, and therefore no taxes paid at all, no tourism, no consumption, everyone is self imposing an "embargo" against Bavarians and Germans
Again............... Austrians driving A8/A93 from Salzburg to Innsbruck do not have to pay. Bavarians have to pay for driving on Austrian Autobahns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
It's also funny, how some Bavarian "egocentric" politicians could have imposed this idea to the entire nation.
It's very simple. CSU party does only exist in Bavaria. They got 49.3% of the Bavarian votes at the last Bundestag election in 2013. They have a so-called "Union" with CDU which does not exist in Bavaria. The "Union" (CDU+CSU) got 41.5% in Germany. CSU insist on the car toll for the coalition agreement.

Why have so many "stupid" Bavarians (plus Swabians, Franconians and people from Upper Palatinate - all parts of Bavaria) voted for CSU? Well, you can't reduce a "succesful" party (or the "successful Union") to one stupid election pledge. Other parties have more "stupid" ideas...
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Old February 28th, 2015, 03:47 PM   #7648
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I'm not convinced that the EU will accept this plan. It's completely unfair if foreigners have to pay 130 Euro while road+vignette tax is far less for the same car for a German for a start. If the German drives from Frankfurt to Poznan, he'll pay the same toll as me. But if I drive from Frankfurt to Berlin, he might well pay less than me for the same thing. That's just completely and totally unfair in every sense of the word.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 04:02 PM   #7649
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Any kind of road toll could be called "unfair" in general!
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Old March 1st, 2015, 02:11 PM   #7650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
There weren't that many in Germany. Adding a lane on for example the A1 between Bremen and Hamburg, the A4 between Aachen and Cologne or the A3 at Würzburg has been long and painful.
A3 Cologne-Hanau, A7 Göttingen-Kassel, A8 Munich-Inntal, A9 Nuremberg-Munich and A81 Heilbronn-Stuttgart are 2x3 for a long time. A5 Frankfurt-Darmstadt even 2x4 (IIRC since 1970th).
A1 Dortmund-Cologne, A2 Oberhausen-Berlin, A4 Eisenach-Dresden and A9 Berlin-Nuremberg etcetera were mostly widened to 2x3 within the past 25 years.

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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Wonder when they will start between Würzburg and Nürnberg....
Aschaffenburg-Würzburg is announced to be completed by late 2019.
Würzburg-Nuremberg is announced to be widened afterwards. Well, all plan approval orders are announced to be passed by late 2015 (5 procedures are valid, 4 are still on-going (I don't believe they'll be completed this year), 1 is appealed (court hearing on 25th March)). It's planned to be built as PPP project (easy terrain, no large buildings). I guess it could be built ~ 2020-2024.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 02:17 PM   #7651
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Old A4 after opening Jena tunnel.

Wow! They are really quick with the renaturation of the old A4 stretch.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 04:53 PM   #7652
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
So the Bavarians got their way and tolls applies from next year onwards. Ah well, a maximum of 130 euros per year is not the end of the world....
Okay, someone bring me up to speed...I just read from here forward, and I may have missed it, but does this toll apply in Bavaria only or nationally (or nationally with exceptions like that Salzburg-Innsbruck route someone mentioned)?
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Old March 1st, 2015, 05:17 PM   #7653
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Ahh, you read Road_UK's posts only

All driver have to pay, Germans for using any German Autobahns or B roads, foreigners for Autobahns only. The vignette price depend on ecological features of the vehicle which will be the same like the today's vehicle tay. Germans have automatically to buy the vignette.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=7647
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old March 1st, 2015, 05:41 PM   #7654
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Ahh, you read Road_UK's posts only

All driver have to pay, Germans for using any German Autobahns or B roads, foreigners for Autobahns only. The vignette price depend on ecological features of the vehicle which will be the same like the today's vehicle tay. Germans have automatically to buy the vignette.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=7647
More a matter of I read it all quickly (since it doesn't affect me personally) and I didn't read any links in German, because my German's very rusty.

I knew this issue had been out there for some time, but didn't remember the details.

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Old March 2nd, 2015, 12:28 AM   #7655
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Like with most of the few semi-descent ideas of the CSU(who tend to make us bavarians look stupid and crazy for the rest of the world), it's the way of implementation that will make it fail. I wouldn't mind a road toll at all, but using an "electronic vignette" is just plain stupid. Why not make it pay-as-you-go?
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 12:31 AM   #7656
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How do you want to do that? Vignette? Register online first?
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 07:34 PM   #7657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Yeah, I used to love driving in old hilly and curvy RAB - before they "corrected" them to new wide, no more hilly and straight portions - especially A4 near Eisenach and (still) A8. Even when riding "only" 120 km/h you feel like a race driver . There is also these stretches by Kassel and by Hof that are nice .
Does anyone have a map of the current BAB that still have RAB allignment standards? I mean those stretches that haven't been upgraded yet. I've managed to found a couple of maps at the German Ministry of Transportation website, but I'm not really sure that's what I'm looking for.

For instance, on this map (sorry, I can't post links directly):

www dot bmvi dot de/SharedDocs/DE/Anlage/VerkehrUndMobilitaet/Strasse/entwicklung-der-bundesautobahnen-seit-der-wiedervereinigung.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

I guess the ones I'm looking for should fall in the following categories:

Bestandsstrecken 1990 -> BAB 4-streifig

Projekte auf BAB gemäß Bedarfsplan für die Bundesfernstraßen -> Erweiterungen -> BAB von 4 auf 6 bzw. 8 Fahrstreifen


But then again I'm not sure if those 4-lane BAB existing in 1990 were all built with RAB standards. I don't really need an exhaustive list, I'd just like to know the major autobahnen that are yet to be upgraded.

Sorry if this has already been answered, but apparently I can't do searches within a thread either.
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Old March 3rd, 2015, 12:19 PM   #7658
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4 webcams filming the construction of the new A100 stretch in Berlin.


Fascinating stuff! Please click "Zeitraffer gesamt" for more emotions!
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Old March 5th, 2015, 07:46 PM   #7659
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Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
Does anyone have a map of the current BAB that still have RAB allignment standards? I mean those stretches that haven't been upgraded yet.
No. But I think there are only 3 sections in Germany:
- A8 Pforzheim-North to Pforzheim-South (~5km; map; construction could begin in 2016 or later)
- A8 Mühlhausen to Ulm (~40km; map; partial u/c)
- A8 Rosenheim to Bad Reichenhall (~50km; map)

I'm not sure about A11........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
But then again I'm not sure if those 4-lane BAB existing in 1990 were all built with RAB standards.
No! RAB means Reichs Auto Bahn. We discussed the "Reich" topic just a few days ago. The "Reich" period ended in 1945, not 1990! RAB were built/opened until ~1943.
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Old March 5th, 2015, 09:14 PM   #7660
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How do you want to do that? Vignette? Register online first?
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