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Old May 12th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #7841
Heico-M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The new toll law passed the Bundesrat, see press release.

The Federal President, Mr. Gauck, must sign it next. Afterwards, tendering for operator can begin. The operator must establish and operate an E vignette system. The KBA (Federal Motor Transport Authority) must establish and operate a database ("Infrastrukturabgaberegister").
Meanwhile, Austria has addressed the EU-commission to investigate whether the German toll law is in line with EU regulations.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...a-1033379.html

Violetta Bulc, the EU Commissioner of Transport has earlier expressed her scepticism towards the toll law.

Remember: Angela Merkel has promised before the Federal Elections in September 2013, that there would be no car toll. But the car toll made it into the coalition agreement, passed the Bundesrat and the Bundestag. The EU may stop it now.

If Merkel really has counted on the EU to stop the toll law, then she has both kept the coalition contract and her promise to the people. That would be a masterpiece of diplomacy!!!

Horst Seehofer's behaviour indicates that this may be the case. He has announced to retire in 2017.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:25 PM   #7842
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Even though I don't like the toll law, the question remains - what's Austria's problem with this? I can understand Belgium and the Netherlands kicking up a fuss, but Austria has a vignette too!

The only thing I don't like is not actually knowing the costs of it.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:50 PM   #7843
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Nothing wrong with a toll on motorways as such.

The point is the way the toll law is constructed and the history behind it.

Let's see if I can describe it correctly.

During their election campaign the CSU, the regional Bavarian sister party of the CDU (which Angela Merkel belongs to), argued for a road toll for cars because it was found unjustified that Bavarian (I intendedly do not write Germans) have to pay for a vignette in Austria and Switzerland, but the Austrian and Swiss people can use the German motorway for free.

Especially the A93/A8 is highly frequented by Austrians because it is the only motorway connection from Innsbruck to Vienna.

As the German people are generally against the car toll, the CSU turned it that way that only foreigners were to pay the toll. That is of course a discrimination of foreigners and is highly against the EU regulations.

Now they made the stunt that the Germans have to pay the road tax too but get it refunded by reducing the vehicle tax by the same amount. Still, the discrimination remains, and I can understand the Austrians when they believe that all this activity is targeted against them. Because that's what it is.

And let's face it: the expected income after transaction costs is ridiculous in relation to the federal road budget. There are no more than 5% of foreign cars on German motorways anyway. And many of these people fill up gas while crossing the country, so they do pay their share already today. The problem is that the money from the fuel tax is not used for the infrastructure but disappears in the general federal budget.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 02:01 AM   #7844
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but reducing the tax is already what A, CH, CZ have effectively done by having vignettes in the first place, and their non-linear cost (e.g. 100 EUR per year, or 10 EUR per 10 days) is specifically discrimination against foreign traffic...
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Old May 13th, 2015, 02:33 AM   #7845
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The point is that, whatever the price is, it is the same for any driver, local or foreigner.

Yes, of course the average local driver will probably use the more convenient long term fare and the average foreign driver will have to pay more per-day, but they're all free to choose and are requested the same price.

In the Dobrint system a foreigner cannot -in any way- pay the same price as a local... since the local is paying 0
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Old May 13th, 2015, 09:32 AM   #7846
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Quote:
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but reducing the tax is already what A, CH, CZ have effectively done by having vignettes in the first place, and their non-linear cost (e.g. 100 EUR per year, or 10 EUR per 10 days) is specifically discrimination against foreign traffic...
Yes, but in the German system, the tax reduction would be linked to the actual toll, that is what makes the discrimination so obvious.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 09:59 AM   #7847
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but reducing the tax is already what A, CH, CZ have effectively done by having vignettes in the first place
Yes. The main issue is that in Germany the tax reduction will be always exactly the same as the toll. Not any single cent more or less.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 10:42 AM   #7848
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The proposal also includes the fact that foreigners are suppose to cough up 20% of gross revenue while they represent 5% of kilometers travelled. And then they call it 'fair'.

I prefer a vignette over distance-based toll though. A vignette is much cheaper (which is also why it doesn't generate meaningful revenue).

I also wonder if they will pull the 'LKW maut trick' again. When they introduced the truck toll, it was presented as a major increase in road funding, but what they did in reality was reduce regular funding by the same amount, meaning that truckers pay much more taxes, but don't get any increased road funding.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 12:41 PM   #7849
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I'm guessing that the percentage of foreign traffic is also a lot greater among lorries than it is for passenger vehicles.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 08:12 PM   #7850
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A45 Hagen - Gießen

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
It's definitely an 'all'. All planning for A45 is done in anticipation of a widening to six lanes of complete route between Dortmund and Gambacher Kreuz
Yes and no. Some bridges will just be renovated first (Sanierung). All bridges which will be rebuilt (Neubau) are planned to feature 2x3 lanes plus hard shoulders (3rd lane could remain closed until neighboring section features 2x3 lanes too).
20 Jahre Dauerbaustelle (20 years construction site)

There was a conference about A45 renovation and widening. The Federal Ministry announced that all 38 A45 bridges will be renewed and A45 will be widened to 2x3 lanes by 2028. Total costs: about 1.3 billion €.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old May 13th, 2015, 09:03 PM   #7851
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20 Jahre Dauerbaustelle (20 years construction site)

There was a conference about A45 renovation and widening. The Federal Ministry announced that all 38 A45 bridges will be renewed and A45 will be widened to 2x3 lanes by 2028. Total costs: about 1.3 billion €.
Until 2028 is only 13 years, though.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 09:30 PM   #7852
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13 years would be quite fast considering how many conventionally funded projects are progressing. On the other hand some bridges are in a poor condition and can't wait until 2035 or so. They had problems with these bridges fairly quickly after they opened, some already had extensive rehabbing in the early to mid-1980s.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 09:38 PM   #7853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Even though I don't like the toll law, the question remains - what's Austria's problem with this? I can understand Belgium and the Netherlands kicking up a fuss, but Austria has a vignette too!

The only thing I don't like is not actually knowing the costs of it.
easy to explain, every country that intruduced tolls do it without any tax reduction, germany effective create a big bürocratic system where germans have to pay in addition 0 € more, all others have to pay and this is discremenation

and for all who say the tax situation for cars is in germany heavier, that is wrong, google can help:

example VW Golf 105 PS:
-> new buied first registration Austria 1000 Euro more taxes
-> per year 188 Euro more taxes in Austria

if you buy bigger cars it getting extremer with a luxury factor

in addition we have buy the vignette if we want use our motorways, its a personal decision if you want to use it or not, the whole system is built with a complete split from normal roads, in germany a lot of motorways was built and the local roads destroyed and you have no really choice


Germany have no money for infrastructure, but there is a lot of money for old people, old people go to elections, infrastructure not
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Old May 19th, 2015, 10:35 PM   #7854
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The modern Autobahn turns 80 years today. On 19 May 1935, the Reichsautobahn Frankfurt - Darmstadt (current A5) opened to traffic. It is often considered the first true motorway in the world, a four-lane divided highway with interchanges intended for public use.



Some footage (not all is from the A5)

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; May 20th, 2015 at 10:33 AM. Reason: error
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Old May 21st, 2015, 10:43 PM   #7855
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84 Autobahn bridges in North Rhine Westphalia are in such poor condition they need to be demolished and rebuild.

They are checking all bridges built before 1985 (6,000 out of 10,000 bridges in the state). The first 105 inspected bridges give a bleak picture, 50 of them need to be strengthened, to keep them going until there's money to replace them.

http://www.ksta.de/nrw/nrw-brueckenp...,30747300.html
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Old May 21st, 2015, 11:47 PM   #7856
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Somehow I don't believe fully these reports of "OMG we just discovered we need to replace plenty of aging ordinary infrastructure". That might work for the space shuttle or one-off complex structures, not to road bridges.

Seems more like a dressing up, a theater that makes somehow more detailed inspections to confirm what people on road agencies have long known and discussed internally.

At least in countries with functioning road authorities. Mabye things are different in very poor dysfunctional countries.
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Old May 22nd, 2015, 02:57 PM   #7857
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Germany has a history of bridge problems. Already in the 1980s extensive rehabbing was necessary on various Talbrücken built in the 1960s.

Bridges are visually inspected periodically, but they are now doing more extensive static calculations / inspections it seems.
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Old May 22nd, 2015, 03:21 PM   #7858
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Somehow I don't believe fully these reports of "OMG we just discovered we need to replace plenty of aging ordinary infrastructure".
Is that happening? In Germany?

The Finnish Road Administration monitors regularly the condition of the bridges. Each bridge is classified according its general condition and the severity of existing damages. I am sure that something similar is taking place in Germany, but much more thoroughly.

Typically, the damage index per a bridge increases by time, and more quickly than linearly. If the bridges are not repaired accordingly, the number of bad bridges will grow quickly.
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Old May 22nd, 2015, 10:44 PM   #7859
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Ah well. I'm afraid that many German authorities tried to save money at the wrong end ....
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Old May 22nd, 2015, 11:02 PM   #7860
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Studies suggest that Germany needs an additional annual investment of ½ to 1 % of GDP (EUR 15–30 billion) in infrastructure to reduce the maintenance backlog and modernize infrastructure. Current investment in the 'Bundesfernstraßen' is € 7.2 billion, so it is suggested it needs a major infusion of funding, not just a lousy billion in three years to repair some bridges.
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