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Old July 26th, 2015, 10:57 PM   #8021
ChrisZwolle
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60 km/h is a permanent speed limit? I always find speed limits in German tunnels too low. Way too many Autobahn tunnels are limited at 80 km/h. It clogs traffic around trucks.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 11:23 PM   #8022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
60 km/h is a permanent speed limit? I always find speed limits in German tunnels too low. Way too many Autobahn tunnels are limited at 80 km/h. It clogs traffic around trucks.
On the Mittelerring in Munich it is common to have 60 km/h pretty much everywhere. In the tunnels especially along the North and East corridor there are many speed cameras. They even mounted some new ones on the non-tunnel Western part of the inner ring road and also in the new tunnel now.

Even with the new tunnel traffic will still grind to a hold regularly like other parts of the city ring road (AADT 100,000+ on 2x2 / 2x3) so I don't find the 60 km/h limit that bad. Also there is a lot roads merging onto the road with very small onramps and with 80 km/h this most certainly will result in more accidents and more delays.

Out of town in straight tunnels without any onramps I totally agree with you that 60 km/h and even 80 km/h is on the low side.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 11:36 PM   #8023
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Are there any other large road construction projects going on in Munich right now?
No, but there's discussion about additional tunnels.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 11:36 PM   #8024
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Out of town in straight tunnels without any onramps I totally agree with you that 60 km/h and even 80 km/h is on the low side.
Indeed, an annoying example is the glorified viaduct tunnel on the A2 near Gelsenkirchen. No speed limit before the tunnel, full stop to 80 km/h, and then once again no speed limit.

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Old July 26th, 2015, 11:42 PM   #8025
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80km/h is the common speed limit for German Autobahn tunnels. There are some exceptions with 100km/h, for instance in Baden-Württemberg. It's usually higher in other countries but I don't know and don't understand why it is so damn low in Germany .
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:01 AM   #8026
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80km/h is the common speed limit for German Autobahn tunnels. (...) I don't know and don't understand why it is so damn low in Germany.
Perhaps someone could enlighten me why the speed limit in tunnels is so low, while there isn't a speed limit for some bridges spanning valleys. Last week I drove over the Mintarder Ruhrtalbrücke on the A52 between Düsseldorf and Essen and frankly speaking I was quite surprised there wasn't a speed limit. If safety is the reason for the speed limits in tunnels, why aren't there any on these bridges?


(www.autobahnatlas-online.de)


(derwesten.de)
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:18 AM   #8027
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Why should there be a speed limit on that bridge? I think there's no reason at all.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:27 AM   #8028
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Well, I agree that there is no reason for a speed limit there. But I don't understand why there is a speed limit on a tunnel like the example given a few post earlier. Is such a short tunnel inherently more dangerous than a bridge (the last place where one wants to get airborne following an accident) or any random stretch of Autobahn?
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:33 AM   #8029
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The big danger in tunnel is fires. On bridges or open areas it really isn't much of an issue of all, unless you're the one on fire... Tempo 80 is still absurd though.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:50 AM   #8030
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded View Post
Are there any other large road construction projects going on in Munich right now?
No, but there's discussion about additional tunnels.
Tried to find a rule about tunnel speed limits but found this:

Activity program Mittlerer Ring Munich

Three tunnels are discussed:
- Landhuter Allee, AADT 2010: 122,000-149,000, 1.450m tunnel, construction time: 6 years, costs: 537 million € (with own website)
- Tegernseer Landstraße, AADT 2010: 116,000-131,000, 880m extention of existing Candid tunnel, construction time: 7 years, costs: 350 million €
- Englischer Garten, AADT 2011: 110,000, lowering of 1000m, therof 375m tunnel, construction time: 3-4 years, costs: 59-150 million € (with own website)
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Old July 27th, 2015, 01:20 AM   #8031
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Yes, Tegernseer Landstraße is very complex depending on how much the existing traffic is influenced. Englischer Garten is the easiest project, so this might be the next one.

I am happy that Luise-Kiesselbach-Tunnel is limited to 60km/h since Petueltunnel is 50km/h an due to the installed cameras many drivers slow down to 45. Due to environmental reasons increasing stretches of Mittlerer Ring are limited to 50.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 09:35 AM   #8032
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Quote:
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The only reason that I would see for a speed limit, would be if there were strong cross winds on this viaduct.

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Also, I believe that some restrictions in tunnels are OK, even if they are strait and relatively short (320 m in the photo above). Driving at 300 km/h in a tunnel is simply neither safe nor wise. But 80 km/h or 60 km/h is a bit exaggerated. For this tunnel 120 km/h would be quite safe.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 03:26 PM   #8033
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Quote:
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The big danger in tunnel is fires. On bridges or open areas it really isn't much of an issue of all, unless you're the one on fire... Tempo 80 is still absurd though.
The speed limit in Dutch tunnels is usually 100 km/h, in some cases even 130 km/h. And there have been only two significant tunnel fires since the first long tunnel opened in 1942.

A71 is also annoying, there are a number of tunnels north of Suhl and there is a long stretch limited to 80 km/h there, even though traffic is usually light.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 07:56 PM   #8034
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80 km/h is the nominal tunnel limit in Germany because (according to the RABT):

- equipping tunnels with lighting necessary for safe 100 km/h would cost 2-3 times as much both in initial and operating costs
- certain emission values step up highly above 80 km/h, e.g. NO2 at +30% for 100 km/h, and require additional ventilation systems

100 km/h tunnels require measures to adress both of the above, and additionally require segregated causeways (given for A roads, not necessarily for B) and full hard shoulders along their entire length.

The lighting in tunnels has to be adjusted for a certain nominal speed since it causes a "flickering" for drivers that is detrimental to their vision. This flickering needs to be kept at below 2.5 Hz or above 13 Hz for safety reasons. This goes for all tunnels which at maximum allowed speed require more than 20 seconds to pass (i.e. above 444m for 80 km/h or 555m for 100 km/h).
Since many shorter tunnels do not have significant ventilation systems the above emission factor applies for them instead.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 08:54 PM   #8035
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Everywhere else in Europe there are tunnels with a speed limit of 100 km/h or higher and we don't have neither drivers choking on the pollution nor having epileptic seizures due to the lighting not being well-calibrated, and cost is kept to a reasonable standard. These requirements are too strict IMO.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 09:45 PM   #8036
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In addition, tunnels abroad are usually darker than German tunnels............
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Old July 27th, 2015, 10:33 PM   #8037
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The speedlimit in tunnel Erle actually is 100 km/h
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Old July 28th, 2015, 11:55 AM   #8038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The lack of high capacity & high speed interchanges in Germany is indeed notable. There are many Autobahn to Autobahn interchanges where you can drive only 40 km/h. They did construct a few flyovers or direct connectors here and there but they are still relatively rare.

Major interchanges like the Frankfurter Kreuz, Kreuz Leverkusen, Kreuz Oberhausen, Bremer Kreuz, Hermsdorfer Kreuz, Kreuz Walldorf, Wiesbadener Kreuz or Kreuz Köln-West are still cloverleafs.
Kreuz Leverkusen will be reconstructed like this:



Good progress on the A46 from Bestwig to Brilon in Sauerland:

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Old July 28th, 2015, 02:49 PM   #8039
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That's an old photo. I took this photo in March 2014. No doubt it is more advanced now.


A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-7 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old July 28th, 2015, 03:20 PM   #8040
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Quote:
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The only reason that I would see for a speed limit, would be if there were strong cross winds on this viaduct.



Also, I believe that some restrictions in tunnels are OK, even if they are strait and relatively short (320 m in the photo above). Driving at 300 km/h in a tunnel is simply neither safe nor wise. But 80 km/h or 60 km/h is a bit exaggerated. For this tunnel 120 km/h would be quite safe.
In Italy most motorway tunnel have the standard speed limit (130) unless a lower one is signposted.
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