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Old May 22nd, 2016, 01:03 PM   #8641
ChrisZwolle
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From a Dutch perspective the exceedingly slow progress of construction and the way things are done in Germany is astounding. Especially those Baustellen with only a few pieces of machinery and 3 people on them. I mean, isn't that driving Germans nuts?

For example, the construction time of A46 near Bestwig is now estimated at 9 years. Of course, it has a tall bridge. But the bridge is already completed and yet they take another 2-3 years to complete the actual Autobahn. Why not do that simultaneously? The Millau Viaduct was built in 3 years.
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Old May 22nd, 2016, 03:23 PM   #8642
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I agree !! When I compare with other countries.... also with my second home Malaysia... Highwy construction in Germany need double to triple time. And.... other countries have also mountains and swamp in the ground.
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Old May 22nd, 2016, 09:25 PM   #8643
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yeah, the inability to build anything at all is really astounding. It's not like projects are either slow OR expensive, they are alway both. And then they still are always behind schedule and over budget. Germany has come a long way in the last 30 years. It used to be the clean, efficient and always on-time country. Now it's just utter incompetence.
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Old May 22nd, 2016, 09:35 PM   #8644
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And with an awful lot of political populism, if I may add.

(in good company with the rest of Europe, actually)
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 09:13 PM   #8645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Yes but why is not listed then?
It is:

Quote:
http://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/noch-...n-nrw-100.html
Auch die Staus vor der Leverkusener Rheinbrücke werden noch lange nicht aufgelöst sein: Ab 2017 wird hier auf der A1 das Großprojekt Brückenneubau beginnen.
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yeah, the inability to build anything at all is really astounding. It's not like projects are either slow OR expensive, they are alway both. And then they still are always behind schedule and over budget.
I don't agree. I remember reading about some roads project which were on schedule and without additional costs .

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Germany has come a long way in the last 30 years. It used to be the clean, efficient and always on-time country. Now it's just utter incompetence.
I think Germans are used to it and have accepted it. Germans love to complain but don't change anything. The think the correct term is "saturation", see German wikipedia article (individual saturation of the affluent society which is satisfied with status quo).
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 09:50 PM   #8646
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He claims that the sections (near the Swiss border) have been chosen because they are north-south routes with low truck share.
In other words, roads where speeding is safe.

The obsession of Greens with speed just because speed is something I just won't understand
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 10:01 PM   #8647
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Yeah, of course there are some projects that actually go as planned but it always feels like there aren't any. And the German attitude of complaining and not doing anything is probably the biggest reason why it is as it is right now. Notice how few German members SSC actually has.

From what I get in conversations, infrastructure is taken for granted. That's actually rather German. Everything is expected to work perfectly. What I also notice is that people think that projects have to be that slow. General feeling is that it's either done like in Germany, slow and expensive, or like in China, cheap and falling apart quickly. People aren't informed at how well-managed and quick projects get done in other countries - e.g. NL

I guess that, like you said, Germans are content with statues quo and don't really feel like acting to make it better. Maybe that's just another indication of how aged the German population is.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 10:08 PM   #8648
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Really? I think it is just a matter of time before Germany must kick off a ridiculously big infrastructure scheme. Just makes sense. They have the money they just really need to want it.
And about NL: 20 years ago nothing got build there also. So yes things can change. Actually German companies are building in NL.
I just hope for the big investments like the A20 will finally happen.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 10:23 PM   #8649
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well, one can hope but my hunch is that it won't matter anymore in 20 years or so, seeing how the demographics are currently. Whenever I see some project in eastern Germany proposed with a contruction start at 2025+ I always think: "What's the point? By the time that's finished, nobody lives there anymore." Also, one could argue that the only reason Germany has money is that nothing gets spent on infrastructure.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 11:54 PM   #8650
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It's not like demographics in Netherlands is any better. Anyways slow progress of major projects is rather a global problem.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 12:13 AM   #8651
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currently the NL has much better demographics than GER. It will continue to grow (slowly) in the next decades as the population is still young and thus more fertile. Germany will lose ~20 Mio people in the next decades (25% of the population)

As for project speed: Sure there are projects that are dragging their feet everywhere (the big dig comes to mind) however these tend to be more exception than the norm. If you look at MichiH's lists, you can see how bad it is. on some particulary bad cases it takes nearly 10 years to build 10 km of Autobahn. I don't think it's that bad anywhere else.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 12:47 AM   #8652
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I won't call Netherlands a "young" country. The average age of Netherlands is 42-43, just a 3-4 years behind Germany. The fertility rate of NL has been below replacements for decades now. Besides births in DE are going up IIRC.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 12:56 AM   #8653
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You're right, however the NL will still keep growing for a while, while Germany already had it's population peak. Anyway, this is pretty OT, I suggest getting back on topic.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 11:41 AM   #8654
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Germany will lose ~20 Mio people in the next decades (25% of the population)
Current projection is that Germany will keep its population up till the mit 2030s, although not in the same distribution. The last long-term projection for 2060 is minus 10-17%, although by now it's clear it'll be more likely less than 10% losses. This is relevant for the thread insofar as more recent projections show a significantly increasing re-urbanization in the next 20 years which leads to significantly less cross-country individual transport usage. The 2060 projection also shows a significant drop of the working-age population (by 23-30%) which negatively affects commuter mobility and positively affects industrial road transport.

The "By the time that's finished, nobody lives there anymore." line is rather apt. However, by that time we may need that road to import goods from due east.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 11:53 AM   #8655
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you're right, the projection got recently revised. One could argue about the intelligence of building Autobahnen solely for goods-transport, instead of working on intigrating the european rail systems but that's not really the point. Anyway, thanks for your more accurate numbers.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 03:38 PM   #8656
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If you look at MichiH's lists, you can see how bad it is. on some particulary bad cases it takes nearly 10 years to build 10 km of Autobahn. I don't think it's that bad anywhere else.
Only Switzerland comes to mind. They have only a few projects and they are going at a very slow pace.

The '10 years to construct one segment of Autobahn' issue is becoming increasingly more frequent, until 5 years ago there were maybe one or two projects at a time that took that long, but they are increasingly common.

The situation is particularly problematic on A7 through Hamburg. Ever since they started the expansion of the Elbtunnel there has been more or less non-stop construction on the corridor over the past 20 years.

Major construction on A7 through Hamburg:


The Elbtunnel in particular required a very long time. They started construction on the 4th tube in 1995 and it was completed in 2002. They then renovated the three other tubes, which took until 2013.

Then they started the expansion of A7 north of the tunnel, which is a long-term project in several phases. They are going to build several 'lids' on top of the motoway (Hamburger Deckel). They're also planning to extensively renovate or replace the Hochstraße Elbmarsch south of the tunnel.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 04:18 PM   #8657
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Only Switzerland comes to mind. They have only a few projects and they are going at a very slow pace.
The UK?
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Old May 24th, 2016, 04:53 PM   #8658
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Some Swiss projects;

* A5 Biel/Bienne (east branch: 2007-2017)
* A5 Biel/Bienne (west branch: planned 2019-2030)
* A9 near Gampel (2004-2019)
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Old May 24th, 2016, 05:19 PM   #8659
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Are we looking at construction times only? The planning process takes loads of time in all kinds of places, but Baustellen along the same corridor for 28 years straight is a bit too much yeah.

I remember driving East with my family every summer and wondering how long it'd take to pass all the working zones on BAB2, but that didn't take nearly as long as the A7 through Hamburg methinks.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 07:38 PM   #8660
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Are we looking at construction times only? The planning process takes loads of time in all kinds of places, but Baustellen along the same corridor for 28 years straight is a bit too much yeah.

I remember driving East with my family every summer and wondering how long it'd take to pass all the working zones on BAB2, but that didn't take nearly as long as the A7 through Hamburg methinks.
The recontruction of BAB2 was part of the VDE-projects which handled planning, funding and construction somewhat better than usual, I think. Doesn't mean it was good by any means, though. Some projects aren't nearly finished 25 years after reunification.
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