daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 1st, 2016, 01:32 PM   #8681
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,559
Likes (Received): 19352

Kanaltunnel Rendsburg

There are a lot of problems with the renovation of the Kanaltunnel Rendsburg (1961), a 640 meter long immersed tunnel under the North Sea - Baltic Sea Canal in northern Germany.

It now turns out that the renovation works take 8 years (!), which is longer than anticipated. The works started in 2011 and will likely not be completed before 2019. They will finish the east tube in June, and then start on the west tube.

NDR reports: http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schles...tunnel168.html

This is mind-boggling to me, in the Netherlands, the Velsen Tunnel (1957) is a few years older and slightly longer. The renovation of this tunnel requires only a 9 month closure, and the works also include an improved clearance for trucks, the tunnel is completely stripped.

I drove through the Rendsburg tunnel in April 2011, just before they started the renovation works.

B77 Rendsburg tunnel Nord-Ostseekanal by European Roads, on Flickr
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 3rd, 2016, 09:09 AM   #8682
detreinbek
Registered User
 
detreinbek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hamburg Reinbek
Posts: 52
Likes (Received): 27

As already said here ... in Germany everything takes longer
__________________
Been and Driven D, DK, NL, L, B, F, CH, A, I, FL, SLO, E, P, GB, IRL, PL, CZ, SK, LT, H, S, GR, TR, RL, MA, ZA, BR, PE, MEX, NIC, DOM, RH, JA, IND, MAL, SGP, RI, HK, PNG, AUS, USA (Guam)
detreinbek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2016, 03:08 PM   #8683
Johnpet
Registered User
 
Johnpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 11
Likes (Received): 3

The German Autobahn has taken on an almost legendary mystique. The reality is a little different than the legend. The myth of no speed limits is countered by the fact that Tempolimits are a fact of life on most of Germany’s highways, and traffic jams are common.
Johnpet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2016, 03:24 PM   #8684
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,559
Likes (Received): 19352

I drove 2000 kilometers through Germany last week. There isn't that much high-speed driving anymore. The amount of motorists driving over 160 km/h is limited. Many Autobahns are also overloaded wit truck traffic making very high speeds impractical during the day.

A real obstacle in Germany is the large amount of Baustellen or workzones. It varies by route but they are numerous and often cause traffic congestion when lanes are closed. I drove on A39 and there is a 12 kilometer Baustelle from Lüneburg to Hamburg with a 3-0 system. The carriageway towards Hamburg was completely stripped of pavement, but the Baustelle was entirely vacant, with no workers or machinery present, just a strip of sand where the pavement used to be.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 12:25 AM   #8685
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3705

Is the road construction workforce lazy or corrupt?
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 12:30 AM   #8686
TM_Germany
Got Fachwerk?
 
TM_Germany's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Limburg a.d. Lahn
Posts: 287
Likes (Received): 431

how has this got anything to to with the workers? They just do what they're paid to do, it's the management/policy/planing and funding that are to blame.
__________________
All pics by me unless otherwise credited.

Neotradtional Architecture in Germany

Leipzig in Spring: Historicism at its finest.
TM_Germany está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 12:51 AM   #8687
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3705

Sorry, I was meant management and planning. Was it always this way?
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 01:11 AM   #8688
TM_Germany
Got Fachwerk?
 
TM_Germany's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Limburg a.d. Lahn
Posts: 287
Likes (Received): 431

I think other people on this forum are more qualified to answer this question but generally, no. Germany has about ~19,000km of autobahn, so at current construction speeds it would have probably taken longer to build all of them than modern civilization has existed. I think this is very much a problem of the last ~10-20 years
__________________
All pics by me unless otherwise credited.

Neotradtional Architecture in Germany

Leipzig in Spring: Historicism at its finest.
TM_Germany está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 01:13 AM   #8689
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3705

From what I gathered it seems to be lack of money from the central government.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 10:12 AM   #8690
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,559
Likes (Received): 19352

Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
how has this got anything to to with the workers? They just do what they're paid to do, it's the management/policy/planing and funding that are to blame.
I think we can assume the workers are professionals who know what they're doing.

A large number of roadworks appear to be in operation only during office hours, and with a small contingent of workers. If you look at a widening project in the Netherlands or Denmark, there are a huge number of workers and machinery present all along the corridor, while in Germany you often see like 2 machines and 3 workers on a major Talbrücke or widening project. That way it takes much longer to be completed.

For example, during a major weekend closure in the Netherlands there may be hundreds of workers present, sometimes even over a thousand, with 3 shifts per day. They often combine works that would require lane closures into a single night or weekend. So you can have one crew doing paving, another doing bridge joints, another demolition, another placing bridge beams, spread out along the corridor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
I think other people on this forum are more qualified to answer this question but generally, no. Germany has about ~19,000km of autobahn, so at current construction speeds it would have probably taken longer to build all of them than modern civilization has existed. I think this is very much a problem of the last ~10-20 years
The German Autobahn system is approximately 13,000 kilometers long. The slow progress is not always the case, many DEGES projects are fairly quick (2-4 years of construction instead of 7-10).

You indeed see projects today requiring twice or even three times the amount of time that was needed in the 1960s. I think this is also due to the tendering process. You can award the entire project to a consortium, or tender each item separately. Last year the A30 completion at Bad Oeynhausen got delayed by a year due to a € 1500 tender for scaffolding. The A71 opening north of Sömmerda was delayed by 5 months due to a tender for crash barriers. In both cases the tender was contested by a competitor.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

TM_Germany, JuergenSchT liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 12:27 PM   #8691
Autostädter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dortmund
Posts: 1,172
Likes (Received): 995

In this context, these news could be interesting (dunno, has it been mentioned here?):

The minister for infrastructure wants to create a federal agency responsible for planning and constructing Autobahns (Bundesautobahngesellschaft). This is now the responsibility of the Länder, while the financing comes from the federal budget. He hopes to speed up planning and construction processes. The road network is about to be overhauled on a large scale, which could be a problem as the transition to the new practice would take some years. The Länder are against the plan, but could agree in return for more money. http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaf...-14142426.html
__________________

TM_Germany, detreinbek liked this post
Autostädter no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2016, 12:32 PM   #8692
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,559
Likes (Received): 19352

Presently the Länder (states) are responsible for planning and procedures. They also have to pay for that themselves, which could be in the range of 20% of the entire project cost. The Bund (federal government) only pays for actual construction works.

A criticism I frequently read is the lack of capacity among state road authorities to plan these projects. Sometimes there's funding allocated to a project without Baurecht (not shovel-ready) while in other cases there are shovel-ready projects, but no funding.

They hope to address these problems with the new Bundesverkehrswegeplan (federal transportation plan) and a federal planning agency.

Another problem in Germany appears to be the bureaucratic procedures and very expansive environmental assessment. For instance, at the Fehmarnbelt Tunnel which is 50/50 Danish and German, the Danish plan approval procedure had 1655 pages worth of documentation while the German side had over 11,000 pages. Something's off there.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 6th, 2016, 06:14 PM   #8693
Mathias Olsen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 125
Likes (Received): 149

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Another problem in Germany appears to be the bureaucratic procedures and very expansive environmental assessment.
My experience is that Northern Germany is faster than the South. The A1 Bremen-Hamburg went quick from 2x2 to 2x3, while we are still waiting for a 2x3 motorway between the East and the West in Southern Germany (A3/A6/A8)...
Mathias Olsen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 6th, 2016, 06:18 PM   #8694
detreinbek
Registered User
 
detreinbek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hamburg Reinbek
Posts: 52
Likes (Received): 27

A1 HH-HB was given to a private company... read here
http://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/art...er-fertig.html
__________________
Been and Driven D, DK, NL, L, B, F, CH, A, I, FL, SLO, E, P, GB, IRL, PL, CZ, SK, LT, H, S, GR, TR, RL, MA, ZA, BR, PE, MEX, NIC, DOM, RH, JA, IND, MAL, SGP, RI, HK, PNG, AUS, USA (Guam)
detreinbek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 6th, 2016, 06:29 PM   #8695
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,559
Likes (Received): 19352

Yes, this has to do with the funding structure (a PPP) as opposed to conventional funding. PPP projects are usually fast, requiring 4 years of construction, regardless of the project length.

A PPP means all funding to complete the project is available from the beginning, which means they can build it as fast as they want. PPPs are increasingly operated as availability payments instead of shadow tolls, which reduces the risk for the taxpayer, but it also gives an incentive to the contractor to finish the works as fast as possible. Meanwhile, the 30 year concession to operate and maintain the Autobahn significantly reduces the incentive to cut corners on quality, because they have to pay for that themselves. In addition, most concession contracts include a handover in good condition, so they can't get away with not maintaining it the last 15 years.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

detreinbek liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 6th, 2016, 07:24 PM   #8696
Mathias Olsen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 125
Likes (Received): 149

Quote:
Originally Posted by detreinbek View Post
A1 HH-HB was given to a private company...
In Southern Germany they also used PPP. On May 2007 the first Private Motorway project in Germany was on A8 München-Augsburg. It is the Road Transport Governance that counts, they are more in a hurry in the North than in the South.
__________________

detreinbek liked this post
Mathias Olsen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2016, 12:05 AM   #8697
Christian_AT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 198
Likes (Received): 87

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yes, this has to do with the funding structure (a PPP) as opposed to conventional funding. PPP projects are usually fast, requiring 4 years of construction, regardless of the project length.

A PPP means all funding to complete the project is available from the beginning, which means they can build it as fast as they want. PPPs are increasingly operated as availability payments instead of shadow tolls, which reduces the risk for the taxpayer, but it also gives an incentive to the contractor to finish the works as fast as possible. Meanwhile, the 30 year concession to operate and maintain the Autobahn significantly reduces the incentive to cut corners on quality, because they have to pay for that themselves. In addition, most concession contracts include a handover in good condition, so they can't get away with not maintaining it the last 15 years.
PPP means that private built, they get money fixed every month or parts of the truck tolls IF the upgrade ist finished, for the privates is important to build fast, take a credit and build to get money from the gouvernment

the funny situation in germany are 2 things:

1. the local areas are responsible for what is planed and they get their part of the piece of money if they have a project finished with ability to build, funny is a example, the new plan is that one region say a upgrade from 2+2 to 3+3 is urgently needed for a length of 31km at the end is the Rhine river and on the other side are 6km in another district, this one say no expansion is needed, funny because are the cars of the third needed lane are jumping in the river ?
https://www.google.de/maps/dir/49.55...a=!4m2!4m1!3e0
all projects ranked new (blue is very important, red important, orange not so)
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...a-1089721.html

2. project management is very poor, they get money and build things with not make sence, for example at the moment perfect to see at google maps satelite image, as story told, motorway expansion from 2+2 to 3+3 a section as gap closing, connecting sections finished, in the middle of the last section a new big bridge, with track change and height level change it was difficult to connect the new bridge to the expanded motorway, but they built the new big expensive bridge first and after finishing it cant be used for 2 years befor the rest was finished
https://www.google.de/maps/@48.93389.../data=!3m1!1e3
-> in this project use the money first for the other parts which can be used if they are finished and build this bridge as last piece of the whole project
-> use the money for finishing another project and use the money from the other project from later to build this bridge just in time

for me a complete logic project planing is missing, i have to calculate a possible open date and then i get automatically the answer in which month i need how much money, this is the best case for using available money, building things that cant be used for years is quite funny

next one, new motorway with big expensive bridge:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talbr%C3%BCcke_Nuttlar
https://www.google.de/maps/@51.37754.../data=!3m1!1e3
bridge main deck finished September 2013, yes than you need connection to the normal road, you need some toppings like pavement, but opening date of the new motorway 4 years after finishing the expensive bridge
__________________

detreinbek liked this post
Christian_AT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2016, 02:50 PM   #8698
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 525
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian_AT View Post
funny because are the cars of the third needed lane are jumping in the river ?
A61 AADT, southeast to northwest for that section:
- AD Hockenheim (A6) to AS Hockenheim : 54906/day
- AS Hockenheim to AS Speyer (B9) : 51354/day
- AS Speyer to AS Schifferstadt : 41725/day
- AS Schifferstadt to AK Mutterstadt (A65) : 45033/day
- AK Mutterstadt (A65 to AK Ludwigshafen (A650) : 60964/day
- AK Ludwigshafen (A650) to AK Frankenthal (A6) : 68363/day

Realistically - from those numbers - what should be widened is the section between AK Frankenthal and AK Mutterstadt. In fact, that's the part that already has Baurecht since last year. Cost for widening to 3+3 in that 13.5 km section is 91 million Euro.

Widening the 17 km section from Mutterstadt to Speyer is part of a larger project of Rhineland-Palatinate state in which they want the entire A61 on their state territory widened to 3+3, but which has been on the backburner for the past decade for lack of money (and which for partial projects like Mutterstadt-Speyer was cancelled for that reason too occasionally). In my opinion the project as a whole, aside from "we have to spend money on an Autobahn for our voters now!", is caused by fears that planned expansions in NRW will make the A61 even more attractive as a North-South route for people from the Netherlands.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 12th, 2016, 12:00 PM   #8699
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
New expressways:
B535: AS Mannheim-Friedrichsfeld – AS Schwetzingen-Center (2x2) 1.9km (December 2010 to Mid December 2015) [2nd c/w] – projectmap
It's reported that it will be completed in Mid 2016, see news article. The railroad bridge was demolished last week, see pics.
It's announced that it's planned to have 4 lanes in service from late June 2016, see press release.
It's announced that it's planned to have 4 lanes in service from August 2016, see news article from 4th June 2016.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I found some more dates regarding the A23 upgrade near Itzehoe;

* 2 March 2006: first sod of the B5 to A23 upgrade
* 10 January 2007: start construction new Stör Bridge
* 25 February 2008: first new span installed
* 19 June 2010: opening of the first new span
* 26 October 2015: opening of the second span
* June 2016: completion of the B5 to A23 upgrade

Total construction time from first sod to completion: 10 years and 3 months.
The official opening ceremony was yesterday. It's announced that it's planned to have 4 lanes in service from 8th July, see news article.
__________________

Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

Been/driven: A, AND, B, CDN, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, EST, F, FIN, FL, GB, H, I, L, LV, LT, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, USA (My cumulative travel mapping)

TM_Germany liked this post
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2016, 09:36 PM   #8700
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

B27 Donaueschingen - Hüfingen / Behla

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The plan approval order for the B27 b/n AS Donaueschingen (L180) and AS Hüfingen (B31) was passed, see press release. It is planned to built a 2nd carriageway (2x2 with hard shoulders) and grade-separated intersections. The section has a length of 4.1km. Costs: 22.9 million € (OSM). The B27 already has 2x2 lanes (plus hard shoulders) b/n Donaueschingen and Bad Dürrheim. The B27 is on the formerly planned A83 route. There is also an intersection with the A864 (Ex-A86). The AADT is about 20,000 vehicles per day on the approved section and b/n 26,000 and 33,000 vehicles on the 2x2 sections (> click <).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
project list (groundbreaking 2016)

Baden-Württemberg (537 Mio €, thereof 37 Mio € preservation):

[...]

B27 Donaueschingen - Hüfingen 25 Mio €
B27 Behla bypass 7 Mio €

[...]
The groundbreaking ceremonies of both projects took place today, see press release (2). The 2x2 widening is announced to be completed by late 2021 (25 million €; 4.1km). An interchange will replace the last at-grade intersection. The Behla bypass begins just 2km south of the widening section. It's a simple 2-laned bypass (8.1 million €; 1.9km) to be completed by late 2018 at the earliest.
__________________

Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

Been/driven: A, AND, B, CDN, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, EST, F, FIN, FL, GB, H, I, L, LV, LT, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, USA (My cumulative travel mapping)
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autobahn, baustelle, congestion, germany, highways, marode brücken, motorways, stau

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium