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Old June 20th, 2016, 09:06 AM   #8721
ukraroad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
In most countries they usually work only Mon-Fri.
It was Orthodox Trinity yesterday(a big feast in church). Maybe the workers are orthodox?
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Old June 20th, 2016, 11:07 AM   #8722
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Workers on Dutch motorways usually work weekends and nights

But I saw activity on the A7 widening north of Hamburg on Saturday, but apparently only on the PPP stretch. There didn't seem to be work done on the stretch in Hamburg itself (the Hamburger Deckel).
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Old June 20th, 2016, 12:14 PM   #8723
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I traveled also on Thursday and Friday, almost nobody was working anything...
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Old June 20th, 2016, 02:56 PM   #8724
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Many bridges will be constructed or re-constructed coming years. What can we learn from lessons in the past, such as with the collapse of the Norwegian E18 motorway bridge near Holmestrand in 2015?

Accident with E18 motorway bridge near Holmestrand



There have been centuries of learned lessons in Germany and other countries and bridges are constructed with testable safety standards. It is about responsibility. It is about human lives, sustainability and economic benefits. Before a motorway bridge in Germany (or other countries) can be constructed, a workflow has to be followed, including risk management about landslides. There are requirements about soil specifications, seismic data and other specifications that will help to reduce a disaster like the Norwegian E18 motorway bridge near Holmestrand.

http://eurocodes.jrc.ec.europa.eu/do...annex_only.pdf

The Norwegian bridge has been rebuilt in 9 months after collapse. Comparable German bridges have a slower construction time. That doesn’t mean that Germany should not speed up bridge construction. But isn’t it better to prevent a disaster ?

A4 Kirchheim-Eisenach motorway bridge near Horschel

[img]http://il9.picdn.net/************/videos/10059686/thumb/1.jpg?i10c=img.resize(height:160)[/img]
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Old June 20th, 2016, 03:44 PM   #8725
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Building fast does not necessarily mean building bad, and vice versa.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 06:13 PM   #8726
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I don't get the sense of that post. Like Germany isn't having its share of problems with bridges, or like Norway has no risk assessment procedures...
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Old June 20th, 2016, 10:56 PM   #8727
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It's a bad post is what it is, very parochial.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 12:22 AM   #8728
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And the motorway near Holmestrand is E 18, not E 6.

But that's the smallest issue with the post.

To my knowledge there has been a very thorough post-collapse investigation, which has concluded that the bridge collapsed due to earthworks (which should not have happened) close to the bridge. The bridge was not designed to take horisontal loads from the landslide, but that doesn't mean that the design is bad, that the building process was too fast or anything else. It just means that the risk for a landslide is at such a low level that securing loads from all possible directions is not cost effective.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 10:32 AM   #8729
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The bridge was not designed to take horisontal loads from the landslide, but that doesn't mean that the design is bad, that the building process was too fast or anything else.
Are you sure? Aren't horizontal loads from the landslide a risk to consider? Isn't it a best practice to tackle this kind of risks in Europe? For example such as here in Austria?

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Old June 21st, 2016, 01:28 PM   #8730
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I could perhaps have been clearer, the bridge's underground support pillars were only designed to take the veritcal load from the bridge pillars. They can take a certain horisontal load but not if the entire ground moves away. These support pillars were also fixed to the bedrock.

Schematic drawing of the bridge

And regarding that photo from Austria, it seems as there might be some issues with both horisontal and vertical loads in that construction.

Last edited by devo; June 21st, 2016 at 01:29 PM. Reason: typo
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Old June 21st, 2016, 01:57 PM   #8731
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Quote:
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They can take a certain horisontal load but not if the entire ground moves away.
That risk had to be calculated *before* any construction, to avoid the risk human life will be sacrificed.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 03:21 PM   #8732
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@berlinwroclaw, sorry, but I really don't get your argumentation here...

- The Schraudenbach bridge under construction, on the A7 in Germany, partially collapsing (mentioned on the previous page) was surely a disaster, also causing a lot of casualties.
I guess this was raising your first post, but I don't think anybody was criticising German bridge building and engineering, though....

- On the Norwegian bridge, a slip occurred, the bridge didn't totally collapse, there were no casualties. Maybe if a couple of trucks would have driven over after the slip, there might have been more damages.

- The example you bring from Austria is (or least it looks like) the Felberntauernstraße (see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felbertauern_Stra%C3%9Fe, located here: https://www.google.at/maps/@47.11330...!3m1!1e3?hl=de)

This gallery you mention as a prevention from slips is mainly a protection from avalanches.
(I would dare to say an important reason for it being built is also financial, because it allowed this toll road to be operated without much disruption in winter, and skiing guests surely contributed a big amount of the revenues.)

The landslide that happened completely destroyed the gallery, and if it had not happened at 1.30 AM in the morning, but when the road actually was busy, I doubt that it would have been without any casualties.. I think it was pure luck that nobody was harmed, and the gallery didn't help much, and it was not due to better risk management or better engineering skills.

- A bit more than a year ago, we had this slip on a motorway bridge, between Graz and Bruck/Mur, under (re)construction (see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucke...BCckeneinsturz)

Luckily, it didn't hit a train, one passed underneath a few minutes earlier...
In general, it seems like a similar story to the one in Germany.



Btw, the slip on the Felbertauern road was so severe, they had to completely rebuild the road on a new alignment, further away from where the slip occurred. You can see this nicely on OSM at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/47.1131/12.5154:

The red line is just next to where the old road was (still marked as a track), the thick orange line is the new road.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 09:44 PM   #8733
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@berlinwroclaw, sorry, but I really don't get your argumentation here...
No problem. Thanks for the great update about Austria.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 03:57 PM   #8734
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Baustellen

ADAC reports there is a huge increase in the number of road works on the Autobahn. There are currently 575 roadworks on the 13,000 km Autobahn system, one workzone every 23 kilometers on average. The combined length of all work zones is approximately 1,000 kilometers.

The number of road works in June 2016 is 32% higher than June 2015. ADAC warns of increased traffic congestion over the summer.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 04:05 PM   #8735
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At this rate, in about 9 years the whole network will be a single workzone
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old June 27th, 2016, 05:02 PM   #8736
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Old June 27th, 2016, 09:40 PM   #8737
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It's amazing to me how Europe's biggest economy can keep working with such miserable infrastructure. If it were just Autobahnen... but it's not.
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Old June 27th, 2016, 10:02 PM   #8738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
When I look back 30 years I had really fun with long distance driving on our highways. But nowerdays with all this workzones and the increased traffic.... more and more I take the ICE train for long distance. I reach my target relaxed and know before (mostly) when I will arrive.
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Old June 27th, 2016, 10:02 PM   #8739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
It's amazing to me how Europe's biggest economy can keep working with such miserable infrastructure. If it were just Autobahnen... but it's not.
Germans are thorough, polite, and well-organized but not extremely efficient.

If you go to a construction site and watch and listen carefully, you might see and hear workmen throwing bricks to each other:

- Bitte schön!
- Danke schön!
- Bitte schön!
- Danke schön!
- Bitte schön!
- Danke schön!
- ...
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Old June 28th, 2016, 12:28 PM   #8740
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Quote:
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It's amazing to me how Europe's biggest economy can keep working with such miserable infrastructure. If it were just Autobahnen... but it's not.
Well. Living in EU' peripheral countries like Spain or Poland, we do not fully take into account trucks' transit traffic which go through Germany in all directions. And if you add internal German truck traffic, cost of Germany re-unification and the fact that basis (West) German motorways network was built in 50ies and 60ies of last century (with different truck loads requirements), you have the current situation of Stauland Deutschland
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