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Old September 24th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #9441
Wolfgang16
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Good news this that the Kramer Tunnel will be build now

Source in German

So we improve road connections in this region while Austria does nothing.
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Old September 24th, 2017, 09:24 PM   #9442
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
Good news this that the Kramer Tunnel will be build now

Source in German

So we improve road connections in this region while Austria does nothing.
Where exactly is this located?
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Old September 24th, 2017, 09:26 PM   #9443
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Garmisch-Partenkirchen: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/47.4951/11.0783
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Old September 24th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #9444
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That is definitely needed. Traffic in Garmisch is horrible!
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Old September 24th, 2017, 11:08 PM   #9445
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Why should we pay twice? When the Austrian "Pickerl" started it was said that at least the Tschirgant Tunnel would be paid from that, but nothing happened.

I don't know who said that about the tunnel, but I don't think there was any official statement like that :-)

In any case, I don't say you need to "pay twice". Just that I don't see improvements happening there in the scale that would bring the capacity increases you wish for, and no political will, unless you bring in a grand solution, which however Austria is very likely not going to pay for...

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Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
Austria (Tirol to be precise) doesn't want this road. My bet is that the Fernpass Tunnel will never be build. That the people in Ausserfern (Reutte and surroundings) have a bad road connection to their capital doesn't play a role. I only regret that building the A7 up to the border was a complete waste of money. A normal road would have been enough.

The situation is not as simple as you make it sound.

What most people in Tirol do not want is to have is yet another transit corridor opened that would attract even more traffic through the alps there. But if you build the tunnels, you will effectively get that, because a more attractive road will attract also more transit traffic.
Further there is the fear that if you eliminate all mountain passes (by tunnels), you cannot easily keep the ban on trucks > 7.5 tons, which they currently can have in place due to the road geometry. And to have the really heavy long haul trucks passing through, is surely the last thing required there..


Yes, likely building A7 to the border was not required, especially when long before the motorway was extended to there, the treaty about the border-crossing tunnel only provisioned for one tube and 2 lanes. So building the part from Dreieck Allgäu to Füssen with two lanes would likely have been sufficient for the local traffic.


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Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
Good news this that the Kramer Tunnel will be build now

Source in German

So we improve road connections in this region while Austria does nothing.

I think that statement is not particularly fair. If there was a huge demand for inner-Austrian traffic from Innsbruck to Reutte, and if it would be doable to provide a better road connection for them without making that connection a transit route, I think they would do it.
In the current circumstances, there seems to be no real advantage for Austria to do that.

You may compare the road situation with the situation of the train connection between Salzburg and Kufstein via Chiemsee. Nothing really happening there for a likely long time to see, and quite understandably from Deutsche Bahn, as for them, that track is not that important, and they further have identified a different route via Mühldorf to connect Munich to Salzburg, while for Austria, it is the fastest east-west connection...

The improvements done around Garmisch likewise are mostly profiting the easy access to the winter resorts there for the visitors coming from the north. A real improvement for the transit routes would also be in building a long tunnel from south of Garmisch to Telfs at the Austrian A12. I don't think that this would be very popular with people around Garmisch either...
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Old September 25th, 2017, 12:03 AM   #9446
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
Why should we pay twice? When the Austrian "Pickerl" started it was said that at least the Tschirgant Tunnel would be paid from that, but nothing happened. Austria (Tirol to be precise) doesn't want this road. My bet is that the Fernpass Tunnel will never be build. That the people in Ausserfern (Reutte and surroundings) have a bad road connection to their capital doesn't play a role. I only regret that building the A7 up to the border was a complete waste of money. A normal road would have been enough.

Wolfgang
short:
austria said for decades NO motorway, building a motorway to the border with this knowledge is only stupid waste of money


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
Good news this that the Kramer Tunnel will be build now

Source in German

So we improve road connections in this region while Austria does nothing.
kramer tunnel is only a local improvement, no international benefits

#######

then go to the international story what you mention in your posts:


motorway danube-phyrn route = austria decades ago was late, now germany is starting refurbishment, austria is already finished
1:0
motorway tauern = austria twined alp tunnels, germany has done nothing on rosenheim-salzburg very bad condition no sholders
2:0
railway brenner = inn valley build a long distance 2 new tracks, last section in approval process, brenner base tunnel in construction, german side NOTHING
3:0

a clear story about international traffic connections, a clear loosing germany and this are the 3 international important tracks
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Old September 25th, 2017, 06:32 AM   #9447
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What most people in Tirol do not want is to have is yet another transit corridor opened that would attract even more traffic through the alps there. But if you build the tunnels, you will effectively get that, because a more attractive road will attract also more transit traffic.
Further there is the fear that if you eliminate all mountain passes (by tunnels), you cannot easily keep the ban on trucks > 7.5 tons, which they currently can have in place due to the road geometry. And to have the really heavy long haul trucks passing through, is surely the last thing required there..
Yes exactly this is the problem, I was only too lazy to write it down. But the consequence is what I said: the Fernpass tunnel will never be built. There is no village at that stretch, no bypass is needed, so nothing is to be done. I know the situation at the A12 transit corridor in the Inn valley and I can understand people there. The A12 is not only present down in the valley. If you go up on the slopes on both sides of the valley you can here the traffic wide up to the peaks of the mountains. May be the Brenner base tunnel can improve that in the far future, but I doubt that the will raise the acceptance of a second transit corridor.

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I don't know who said that about the tunnel, but I don't think there was any official statement like that :-)
As far as I remember there was some sort of plan which projects will be financed from the vignette, in order to show people where the money will go to and raise the acceptance of the vignette. Of course most projects were in East Austria, but there was also the Tschirgant tunnel (which is located between Nasserreith and Haiming) in that (not the Fernpass tunnel) and it should have been finished in 2011. But in contrast to the Fernpass tunnel I can imagine the Tschirgant tunnel will be built one day in the far future, because there are small villages at the existing roads which suffer from the traffic. Of course thats all a 2 lane road and no motorway.

Regarding the A7 its of course the fault of our government. The situation in Tirol must have been known. But they built it after they finally won the 30 years long court proceedings regardless whether it was needed or not. I think that nobody wanted to admit that all the money for the court was wasted.

I am talking here about the situation in West Austria (especially Tirol) because that bothers us Munich citizens when travelling to Italy or Switzerland (there is another gimmick since Austria and Switzerland seem to be the only main developed countries in the European Union which don't have a motorway connection, but thats another topic). For us Kramer tunnel is a big improvement. Munich - Garmisch - Landeck is an important route for us. The extension to St. Moritz and Italy is also great, Switzerland is continuously improving it.

The situation in East Austria seems to be different and I am not so familiar with that.


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Originally Posted by Christian_AT View Post
motorway danube-phyrn route = austria decades ago was late, now germany is starting refurbishment, austria is already finished
1:0
motorway tauern = austria twined alp tunnels, germany has done nothing on rosenheim-salzburg very bad condition no sholders
2:0
Phyrn route in Austria took a long time to be finished. The much older German part needs refurbishment. I don't understand where is the 1:0 for Austria. Austria twinned the tunnels on the Tauern motorway, but this was mainly done to avoid terrible accidents in the 2-lane tunnel. Traffic jams happened only at a few holiday weekends due to the infamous "Blockabfertigung". I don't think that this has a big effect on the general traffic amount. Also take into account that Tauern and Phyrn were "Sondermaut" stretches right from the beginning i.e. long before the vignette. I doubt that all the toll has been spent only for the tunnels and the nearby motorway, so the money for the second tunnel tubes has been collected long before the tubes were built.

Ok, A8 Rosenheim - Salzburg is narrow but that could be enough feeding the Tauern motorway. I am not an expert, but instead of widening an existing road it is often more efficient to build a second road parallel in some distance. If you need an decent motorway from Bregenz to Vienna you can use A94 Munich - Braunau which should be finally completed soon. You only need to build a short connection to A8. As far as I know this was planned in the beginning, but was skipped by Austria. I don't know why. (We must extend A94 now to Pocking in order to avoid that it ends in the middle of nowhere. This makes no sense.) The resulting connection would even be 30km shorter than via Rosenheim and Salzburg.

Regarding the railway connections you are right. The Deutsche Bahn focussed to much on main connections in Germany. The railway connection from Munich to Switzerland is also terrible despite the new Gotthard base tunnel. But thats again another topic.
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Old September 25th, 2017, 07:01 AM   #9448
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I'm guilty of having this OT started I'll just add that I can understand the Austrian and Swiss refusal for more corridors, but maybe they would show a less strict attitude if there could be an effective ban on heavy trucks.
But Italy and Germany are too dependent on the trucking industry, they'll always lobby for more truck corridors despite the heavy investments in the Alpine railway network.

Today opening a new road means creating new traffic, the last thing we need. Since there's no practical way to put a cap on the amount of vehicles... I can't really blame the Austrians.
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Old September 25th, 2017, 11:30 AM   #9449
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Yes, a bit offtopic, but well

- I think that counting "score" is anyhow not fit here. But besides this, if one did it, the 1:0 for Austria for the Phyrn corridor is indeed a bit weird, because we are not even yet finished with twinning it, though it is almost there now (1 year for the tunnels in Oberösterreich, 2 years for the Gleinalmtunnel, though for that one, there was already since some time the twinned alternative via Bruck/Mur on S35/S36).


- Indeed, two tunnels on this connection always had Sondermaut. And true, the major impetus for actually twinning is safety concerns, and new regulations that mandate at least an emergency tunnel built in parallel for longer tunnels. For example for the Perjentunnel on the S16 (Tirol <=> Vorarlberg) they initially planned to have an emergency tunnel and still use contraflow in the new tube, but they then decided to fully twin it (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjentunnel)


- There used to be a practical way to cap the amount of heavy vehicles, Austria negotiated that when joining the EU in 1995. Unfortunately, they were a bit naive, and the agreement was limited in time, without having provisioned for a good leverage to extend it. So since the early 2000s, there is no more cap. And the problem with the Brenner crossing (and the Fernpass, because there is no toll on it...) is that it is much cheaper than crossings in Switzerland, but there is also a limit on how high the price tag can be, which is mostly determined by the cost of the infrastructure, and that is relatively little for Brenner with no tunnel etc.. (see directive 1999/62/EC). Countries like Austria try to have also external costs included in this formula..


- I agree that the A94 will be the much more logical connection Vienna-Munich, skipping Salzburg, and leaving the A8 mainly for the Munich-Salzburg-Villach-beach route. Indeed initially, this was planned, and in Ried im Innkreis, there was already an interchange prepared, see https://www.google.at/maps/@48.24351...!3m1!1e3?hl=de
However, it was later decided by Austria to not have a corridor crossing the Inn at Braunau. I still think that it would be useful to connect the Austrian A8 better with the German A94, maybe around Bad Füssing. But I don't see that very realistic in the near future.

- Even more off-topic, Austria <-> Switzerland connections - while we have parallel motorways on each side of the Rhine for quite some distance, there is indeed no motorway connection as of yet. However, it is planned to have one in approx. 10 years, the Bodenseeschnellstrasse (in Austria, a Schnellstrasse nowadays is exactly built the same way as a motorway, only older Schnellstrassen have potentially different standards):
http://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssicher...e-bei-hoechst/

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Old September 25th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #9450
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If you need an decent motorway from Bregenz to Vienna you can use A94 Munich - Braunau which should be finally completed soon. You only need to build a short connection to A8. As far as I know this was planned in the beginning, but was skipped by Austria. I don't know why. (We must extend A94 now to Pocking in order to avoid that it ends in the middle of nowhere. This makes no sense.) The resulting connection would even be 30km shorter than via Rosenheim and Salzburg.
Are there any serious plans for completing A94 anytime soon?
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Old September 25th, 2017, 01:49 PM   #9451
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Are there any serious plans for completing A94 anytime soon?

not really, the biggest Problem is solved in about 26 months,


but built as PPP, a Modell that you can describe like a "motorway lease", contractor build the missing part in between the existing ones (Pastetten-Heldenstein) and operates it for 30 years and get fixed Money every year


the missing Piece to the border is not the biggest Problem, local roads are actual enough, i now always use this route, shorter and the non-motorway sections you have to accept drive 70-80 kmh but motorway sections less traffic and you can go always fast
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Old September 25th, 2017, 01:58 PM   #9452
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Phyrn route in Austria took a long time to be finished. The much older German part needs refurbishment. I don't understand where is the 1:0 for Austria. Austria twinned the tunnels on the Tauern motorway, but this was mainly done to avoid terrible accidents in the 2-lane tunnel. Traffic jams happened only at a few holiday weekends due to the infamous "Blockabfertigung". I don't think that this has a big effect on the general traffic amount. Also take into account that Tauern and Phyrn were "Sondermaut" stretches right from the beginning i.e. long before the vignette. I doubt that all the toll has been spent only for the tunnels and the nearby motorway, so the money for the second tunnel tubes has been collected long before the tubes were built.

Ok, A8 Rosenheim - Salzburg is narrow but that could be enough feeding the Tauern motorway. I am not an expert, but instead of widening an existing road it is often more efficient to build a second road parallel in some distance. If you need an decent motorway from Bregenz to Vienna you can use A94 Munich - Braunau which should be finally completed soon. You only need to build a short connection to A8. As far as I know this was planned in the beginning, but was skipped by Austria. I don't know why. (We must extend A94 now to Pocking in order to avoid that it ends in the middle of nowhere. This makes no sense.) The resulting connection would even be 30km shorter than via Rosenheim and Salzburg.

Regarding the railway connections you are right. The Deutsche Bahn focussed to much on main connections in Germany. The railway connection from Munich to Switzerland is also terrible despite the new Gotthard base tunnel. But thats again another topic.

1. phyrn is in Austria YOUNGER (yes we was late), but we had already refurbished it complete, Germany is in the first stages of this process with the older motorway


2. A8 Germany is in very BAD condition and Need a sholder and extra lane, no discussion about that, on Austria side the last 10 years a lot of Money is put into refurbishment and twining


3. the toll "sondermaut" was always the finance of the first tubes, asfinag was created 1997 and took the debts of different single companies built Initial this sections, uniting These companies asfinag took about 6550 Million euro debts, yearly Revenue from the "sondermaut" is about 150-200 Million, with finance costs the "sondermaut" should have repaid the FIRST tubes in about year 2030, not even talk about the second tube and refurbish costs


the reality is clear, in Austria has EVERYBODY pay for the motorways, but yes it is a Price worth to pay, if you drive over the border bad condition and too less lanes / tracks on really important international routes (A7 or kramer tunnel are per Definition only local stories)
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Old September 25th, 2017, 02:39 PM   #9453
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Are there any serious plans for completing A94 anytime soon?

The german Wikipedia page is quite updated I think:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundes...iteren_Verlauf

In addition, you can check the website of the "Autobahndirektion Südbayern", at http://www.abdsb.bayern.de/projekte/

They have an overview map what is currently under construction (yellow):


- For the longest section under construction between Pastetten and Heldenstein, mentioned by cristian, which is done as PPP, you can find a website at http://www.isentalautobahn.de/bau/bauphasen
Work started early 2016, and the contract foresees opening in October 2019

- The other section currently under construction is Malching to Kirchham. They also started 2016, but some sections are built in a noise-protecting tunnel, and they thus expect 5-6 years of construction time. But this section is rather short, and not that critical

You can see also on OSM the sections under construction:
Pastetten to Heldenstein: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.2345/12.0929

And the section close to Kircham:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.3511/13.2682
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Old September 25th, 2017, 03:13 PM   #9454
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- For the longest section under construction between Pastetten and Heldenstein, mentioned by cristian, which is done as PPP, you can find a website at http://www.isentalautobahn.de/bau/bauphasen
Work started early 2016, and the contract foresees opening in October 2019
So, in the PPP mode, it takes a few years to complete tens of kilometers of road, while normally it takes tens of years to complete a few kilometers?
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Old September 25th, 2017, 04:52 PM   #9455
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I only regret that building the A7 up to the border was a complete waste of money. A normal road would have been enough.
There is nothing to be regretted. The A 7 links Füssen to the rest of the country after all. And that alone is worth completing this motorway. We aim to stretch our motorway network to all corners of the country after all. This improves connectivity even to the remotest part.
It is an Austrian problem and not ours, when their mountain valleys remain isolated due to inappropriate transport links. I wouldn't want to swap with them by no means.
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Old September 25th, 2017, 06:47 PM   #9456
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So, in the PPP mode, it takes a few years to complete tens of kilometers of road, while normally it takes tens of years to complete a few kilometers?
only because of stupid bad management in normal projects, the A94 for example the section Malching - Kirchham which has offical a construction time of 6 years,

this section has a complex building, the construction of this section started offical ONE year ago, what they have done, the build a small minor bridge, start with the complex building with a long time to finish, no thanks, only make a party for starting, use some money to build something minor which stands years not used in the landscape

PPP or other countries think in projects, at which day i have to start which point to finish the project in short time, it does not help to throw money out of the window for parts which i cant use,
but germany is stupid, important is only to start, finish is not important, spread the money on a lot of projects and have nothing finished

a nice example is this:
https://www.google.de/maps/@48.92526.../data=!3m1!1e3
it was a close the gap project, connection sections are already widendend from 2+2 to s3+3s, they build this new big bridge early, it was finished for 2 complete years and wasn't / can't be used because of the height changes and alignment changes in total,
other countries would have invested the money in the other parts of the project and build this bridge as last step, with a handling like this you can shrink the 2+2 section to a very short piece early and as last step build the bridge, there would be only winners, not in germany
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Old September 25th, 2017, 07:34 PM   #9457
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It seems that in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and private concession projects, all the money to complete the project is available from the start, so they can complete the project without phasing or having to wait for the next allocation of money.

I think only Switzerland uses this phased construction like Germany sometimes. A9 in Wallis/Valais being the worst example perhaps. It's one thing to cut up large projects in more manageable sub projects of 7 - 10 kilometers, but in Germany you'll often see bridges built in the fields that then stand unused for years because the earthworks and actual road construction are tendered much later. There is an increasing number of examples of straightforward Autobahn projects that require up to 10 years of work, while other countries complete it in three years or less.

For example A30 at Bad Oeynhausen is now under construction for 9 years. They built two larger bridges across the Werra River that were completed around 2012 and will not be used until 2019 or so.
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Old September 25th, 2017, 08:07 PM   #9458
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It seems that in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and private concession projects, all the money to complete the project is available from the start, so they can complete the project without phasing or having to wait for the next allocation of money.
At least in the Finnish PPP projects, the operator is responsible for financing the project. Therefore, a typical consortium consists of one or two construction companies and an investment bank. Therefore, the money is available when needed. Most projects have completed well ahead the planned schedule.

A few municipalities have entered the PPP mode in new areas: Some schools are operated in a PPP mode.
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Old September 25th, 2017, 08:59 PM   #9459
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It seems that in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and private concession projects, all the money to complete the project is available from the start, so they can complete the project without phasing or having to wait for the next allocation of money.

I think only Switzerland uses this phased construction like Germany sometimes. A9 in Wallis/Valais being the worst example perhaps. It's one thing to cut up large projects in more manageable sub projects of 7 - 10 kilometers, but in Germany you'll often see bridges built in the fields that then stand unused for years because the earthworks and actual road construction are tendered much later. There is an increasing number of examples of straightforward Autobahn projects that require up to 10 years of work, while other countries complete it in three years or less.

For example A30 at Bad Oeynhausen is now under construction for 9 years. They built two larger bridges across the Werra River that were completed around 2012 and will not be used until 2019 or so.
exactly, in germany is money spread to start a lot of projects, nothing is finished because the money is used on too much projects

in austria and your mentioned countries there is only a start if the funding is secured for the complete section to have no stops, start building and build and finish in a fast time without delays, if there is not enough money this project is not startet and this money from the actual year is used for other projects to improve the network

it is sad to watch, always i pass such sections the question why, only for a party to offical start and then years nothing, dead money to watch
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Old September 26th, 2017, 12:37 AM   #9460
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There is nothing to be regretted. The A 7 links Füssen to the rest of the country after all. And that alone is worth completing this motorway. We aim to stretch our motorway network to all corners of the country after all. This improves connectivity even to the remotest part.
Well, with this logic any possible connection is worth building a full motorway... there should be something relevant in that corner to connet it.

Also there are respectable solutions even without going full-Autobahn.
Since the tunnel and the whole road on the Austrian side have two lanes, following a similar design would have sufficed easily, let's say south of Allgäu Dreieck.

It seems there are way more important priorities. Just to give an example, I find it strange that A7 is at top design standard all the way into nothing, and B10 between Göppingen and Ulm still passes through villages.

When I travel on that A7 part I get the impression it was built to try forcing the Austrians to do the same.
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