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Old September 26th, 2017, 01:57 PM   #9461
Heico-M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
When I travel on that A7 part I get the impression it was built to try forcing the Austrians to do the same.
Quite an interesting argument.


And not to forget, to get all those tourists transported to Neuschwanstein.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 05:08 PM   #9462
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B293n Rheinbrücke Karlsruhe - Wörth

A new four lane bridge across the Rhine River between Karlsruhe and Wörth is planned. It will become part of B293 and link B10 with B9, north of the existing bridge which is in poor condition. It will not replace the old bridge, however, but supplement it.

As it is located on a state line, it requires two separate procedures. The plan approval order for the side of Baden-Württemberg has now been published. The plan approval for the side of Rheinland-Pfalz is expected later this year.

https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rpk...g.aspx?rid=931

BW side:


RLP side:
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Old September 26th, 2017, 05:41 PM   #9463
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Old September 26th, 2017, 08:06 PM   #9464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
I only regret that building the A7 up to the border was a complete waste of money. A normal road would have been enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Yes, likely building A7 to the border was not required, especially when long before the motorway was extended to there, the treaty about the border-crossing tunnel only provisioned for one tube and 2 lanes. So building the part from Dreieck Allgäu to Füssen with two lanes would likely have been sufficient for the local traffic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
Regarding the A7 its of course the fault of our government. The situation in Tirol must have been known.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Well, with this logic any possible connection is worth building a full motorway... there should be something relevant in that corner to connet it.
Are 16,000 vehicles/day too less traffic for a 2x2 motorway?

AADT 2015:
AD Allgäu (A980) - AS Oy-Mittelberg (137) 27,000 vehicles/day, 5.6% truck share (9.3km; opened in 1976/1986)
AS Oy-Mittelberg (137) - AS Nesselwang (138) 19,700, 6.4% (5.0km opened in 1992)
AS Nesselwang (138) - AS Füssen (139) 16,400, 7.5% (16.1km opened in 2009/10)
AS Füssen (139) - Border to Austria 15,900, 6.4% (tunnel opened in 1999)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
But they built it after they finally won the 30 years long court proceedings regardless whether it was needed or not. I think that nobody wanted to admit that all the money for the court was wasted.
Not only the money for the court had been wasted but the money for planning procedure! They finally got building permit and starting the whole project from scratch as a 2-laned road had been total waste of money!

Building just one instead of 2 carriageways could be an option but it does only save about 30% of construction costs and adding the 2nd c/w later (if required) is much more expensive than the "saved 30%".

I think it's not clever to build roads with a standard so that they are directly congested after opening but built for the future! A new 2-laned road with 16,000 vehicles/day over more than 10km of a transit route is too much!

In addition, you can drive faster on an Autobahn than on rural roads. That means, the Autobahn is more attractive for (regional, not local) traffic and many villages on alternative routes could be relieved by concentrating the traffic on A7.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 12:06 AM   #9465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Well, with this logic any possible connection is worth building a full motorway... there should be something relevant in that corner to connet it.

Also there are respectable solutions even without going full-Autobahn.
Since the tunnel and the whole road on the Austrian side have two lanes, following a similar design would have sufficed easily, let's say south of Allgäu Dreieck.

It seems there are way more important priorities. Just to give an example, I find it strange that A7 is at top design standard all the way into nothing, and B10 between Göppingen and Ulm still passes through villages.

When I travel on that A7 part I get the impression it was built to try forcing the Austrians to do the same.
We are forcing no-one (not anymore). Germany just doesn't build the bare minimum. We value accessibility and the quality of transport links. For this road of continental significance German guidelines only allow for a full-blown motorway. Exactly this has been provided, nothing more and nothing less.

The B 10 on the other hand is a road of supra-regional significance. Dependent on traffic volumes single-carriageway designs are possible for such a link.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 02:23 AM   #9466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Are 16,000 vehicles/day too less traffic for a 2x2 motorway?
Thats an interesting question. I cannot answer it, but I googled for the AADT at the Fernpass (source) in 2016: 13502 Kfz/24h. Maximum was 28300 at 27.08.2016 (at that date I think the Bavarian summer holidays started) and the Fernpass road is long and windy. So it seems to work somehow. In my opinion the absolute numbers do matter less, its more important to have a continuous flow without abrupt changes in traffic density.

Another point is the route of the A7 between Nesselwang and Füssen. Its a quite strange quarter bend, far from being the shortest route. I wonder why this has been done and whether it is due to the full motorway standard. A normal road projected as bypasses of the villages could have been much shorter. In my opinion such a road could even be 2+2 but with lower standards.

Just to add some info: This is another interesting document, its in german and you need not read it, but quite at the end there are some informative maps inside about the numerous tunnel projects at the Fernpass.

Last edited by Wolfgang16; September 27th, 2017 at 02:29 AM.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 09:08 AM   #9467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
Thats an interesting question. I cannot answer it, but I googled for the AADT at the Fernpass (source) in 2016: 13502 Kfz/24h. Maximum was 28300 at 27.08.2016 (at that date I think the Bavarian summer holidays started) and the Fernpass road is long and windy. So it seems to work somehow. In my opinion the absolute numbers do matter less, its more important to have a continuous flow without abrupt changes in traffic density.

Another point is the route of the A7 between Nesselwang and Füssen. Its a quite strange quarter bend, far from being the shortest route. I wonder why this has been done and whether it is due to the full motorway standard. A normal road projected as bypasses of the villages could have been much shorter. In my opinion such a road could even be 2+2 but with lower standards.

Just to add some info: This is another interesting document, its in german and you need not read it, but quite at the end there are some informative maps inside about the numerous tunnel projects at the Fernpass.

route of A7 in this area, reason historic never built A91:
http://autobahnatlas-online.de/PlanungBauKarteMitAS.pdf
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Old September 27th, 2017, 12:42 PM   #9468
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ok, the quarter bend would even make sense if there would be an exit, but this 16km long stretch is without any exit. When I look around in the neighborhood I don't find any such stretch at similar length.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 08:15 PM   #9469
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A20 Tribsees

A section of A20 west of the Tribsees interchange was built over a bog. It opened to traffic in 2005. However, the Autobahn started to subside, the subsidence is now so bad that they closed the westbound carriageway.

They are now conducting a review on the subsidence but the thought is that piles on which the motorway was built have broken off. The repair can take up to two years.

Motorways are frequently built on piles when they run through bogs. This should prevent excess settlement and subsidence. Several Autobahns in Northern Germany are built this way, most recently A21 near Nettelsee. It's not an uncommon method abroad either (the Netherlands also has some).



https://www.regierung-mv.de/Aktuell/...essemitteilung
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Old September 27th, 2017, 08:51 PM   #9470
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You're shattering all my illusions about Germany!
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Old September 27th, 2017, 09:46 PM   #9471
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I am shocked reading about all these issues about infrastructure development in Germany. Sometimes the project managing seems to be like in a third-world country, not like in the country with the best motorways in the world*...

*according to popular belief in Eastern Europe.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 10:07 PM   #9472
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Popular belief over here, too, at least among driving enthusiasts. (Who insist on saying "the Autobahn" as if there's only one.)
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Old September 27th, 2017, 10:37 PM   #9473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
I am shocked reading about all these issues about infrastructure development in Germany. Sometimes the project managing seems to be like in a third-world country, not like in the country with the best motorways in the world*...
The transition from the engineer quality to the bean counter quality does not happen without consequences.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 10:59 PM   #9474
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Another problem of Germany (and, to a lesser extent, also of other countries such Italy and Belgium), is the average old age of motorways.
40-80 years old infrastructure now starts to show the signs of age in terms both of physical deterioration (cracks on concrete, water infiltrations,...) and construction standards (lanes width, ramps lenght, curve radii, etc...).
Countries who entered late in the motorway era such as East Europe, Spain, Portugal, Greece, China, all developing countries are likely not to have such problems for at least a long time.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 11:36 PM   #9475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang16 View Post
ok, the quarter bend would even make sense if there would be an exit, but this 16km long stretch is without any exit.
The road was in the federal demand plan till 2016 as a 2-laned B17n from north of Steingaden to the edge of the quarter bend. It was further demand of BVWP2003. 22.6km, 57.8million €.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old September 28th, 2017, 12:58 AM   #9476
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Another problem of Germany (and, to a lesser extent, also of other countries such Italy and Belgium), is the average old age of motorways.
40-80 years old infrastructure now starts to show the signs of age in terms both of physical deterioration (cracks on concrete, water infiltrations,...) and construction standards (lanes width, ramps lenght, curve radii, etc...).
Countries who entered late in the motorway era such as East Europe, Spain, Portugal, Greece, China, all developing countries are likely not to have such problems for at least a long time.
less funding for the last 20 years, save money on infrastructure has no direct impact, impact is always delayed because it is always an investment into future

we have the same in austria 20 years ago with broken motorways and not finished other ones, then was toll introduced and asfinag created which refurbish,build,operate,collect toll,..... simple do the whole job and have enough secured funding, after this our motorway got every year better

but improving is the same with getting worse, the process need time 15-20 years
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Old September 28th, 2017, 05:40 PM   #9477
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B50 Hochmoselbrücke

Hochmoselbrücke progress:

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Old September 28th, 2017, 08:46 PM   #9478
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A section of A20 west of the Tribsees interchange was built over a bog. It opened to traffic in 2005. However, the Autobahn started to subside, the subsidence is now so bad that they closed the westbound carriageway.

They are now conducting a review on the subsidence but the thought is that piles on which the motorway was built have broken off. The repair can take up to two years.

Motorways are frequently built on piles when they run through bogs. This should prevent excess settlement and subsidence. Several Autobahns in Northern Germany are built this way, most recently A21 near Nettelsee. It's not an uncommon method abroad either (the Netherlands also has some).
It is a similar method to the "pillar stabilization" used widely in Finland. What is somewhat surprising, is the dimensioning of the pillars: The article says the diameter of the pillars is 15 centimeters, while in Finland it is much bigger: typically 50 to 80 cm. A thin pillar is more prone to buckling by vertical forces and breaking off by horizontal ones. Of course, the distance between pillars matters.

One reason might be poor work: The pillars might be skewed thus not able to carry load. The maximum skewness in the Finnish standards is 2%.

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Old September 29th, 2017, 01:21 AM   #9479
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Popular belief over here, too, at least among driving enthusiasts. (Who insist on saying "the Autobahn" as if there's only one.)
A lot of them are so self absorbed they think Bundesliga is the best football league in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian_AT View Post
less funding for the last 20 years, save money on infrastructure has no direct impact, impact is always delayed because it is always an investment into future

we have the same in austria 20 years ago with broken motorways and not finished other ones, then was toll introduced and asfinag created which refurbish,build,operate,collect toll,..... simple do the whole job and have enough secured funding, after this our motorway got every year better

but improving is the same with getting worse, the process need time 15-20 years
I am very happy that in Slovenia we copied the highway organization from you guys.

It had many problems under like 5 years ago with not thinking in the future and about standards but you can see they are learning from year to year.
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Old September 29th, 2017, 09:19 PM   #9480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Another problem of Germany (and, to a lesser extent, also of other countries such Italy and Belgium), is the average old age of motorways.
40-80 years old infrastructure now starts to show the signs of age in terms both of physical deterioration (cracks on concrete, water infiltrations,...) and construction standards (lanes width, ramps lenght, curve radii, etc...).
Countries who entered late in the motorway era such as East Europe, Spain, Portugal, Greece, China, all developing countries are likely not to have such problems for at least a long time.
It is true that many motorways in Germany are very old. But it is not like they had not been maintained, modernized, widened. After 1990 though, the reuinfication of the two German states cost a lot of money, a good share was used to built motorways in the east. Maintenance of existing motorways in the west had to wait. The Schröder-years brought no improvement, there was no money for roads due to economical stagnation, even recession (2003).

That means betwees 1990 and 2005, a good part of the road network was left to decay. Only in the recent years, since the economy recovered, the renovations could be started. And they are going on! It is crazy how many km of roadworks we have on the German motorway network - I crossed the republic full length this summer - .

This being said, it is a bit ironic that the A 20 is one of the newer stretches. It was only built in the 1990s.
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