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Old January 17th, 2009, 02:49 PM   #1661
ChrisZwolle
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Yeah I think so too. Speeding should only be allowed on really quiet 2x2 motorways or moderate 2x3 autobahnen. I always find France much more relaxing to drive in, in Germany there's always some ******* on your bumper when you overtake a truck or a line of trucks with 130 km/h.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 02:57 PM   #1662
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Originally Posted by LT1550 View Post
you are just crazy. If I compare driving in Germany with driving in France (I am German), driving in France is just more comfortable and you actually have the possibility to enjoy the surroundings. I also usually need less fuel when driving in other countries than Germany. It does not make a big difference if I am driving 190-200 in Germany or 130-140 in France; maybe just minutes - and if I can save lots of fuel - it's worth it.
Well, that's your opinion, not mine. I think the German Autobahn is great, and especially because of the lack of a speedlimit. Also, in Germany you have the possibility to enjoy the environment while driving, no one forces you to drive very fast and 200 km/h is only functional for empty stretches. Not having a speed limit is great because you can drive the speed you want to. And besides, i have driven in countries like Poland, Czech republic and Ukraine, countries with a speed limit but i believe people are driving there faster than people in Germany without a speedlimit. People should have the choice to drive they way the want to.

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Originally Posted by LT1550;30876026I
hope the general speed limit for Germany's motorways will come soon - 130 is enough!
I have written it in the previrous part of the German Autobahn thread (part I), but I believe it is interesting to use it here.

As far as i know, there are no plans for the introduction of a nationwide speedlimit on the German Autobahn. But this issue is an ongoing public debate, but there isn't a (political) majority who wants to impose a speedlimit.

The current minister of transport Wolfgang Tiefensee (SPD) suggested once that it would be good to reduce the carbon dioxide emissions by imposing a speedlimit. It's well known that environmentalists and some leftwing politicians would like to see a speedlimit, but it's less known that this wouldn't result in major changes regarding pollution. It has been calculated that a maximumspeed of 130 km/h would result in a decline of 0.3% of the entire CO2-emission of Germany. Germany is worldwide the 38th country when it comes down to carbon dioxide emissions per capita, which is suprisingly low for an industrial powerhouse. As we can see, the enviromental impact of the lack of a speedlimit is very small, perhaps unnoticable.

Even the previous coalition of the SDU and Greens failed to impose a maximumspeed. Gerhard Schröder called Germany an Autofahrernation (a nation of drivers) to point out the fact that a speed limit would not be generally accepted by the public.
In May 2008 the large coalition of SPD and CDU as well as the FDP rejected the introduction of a speed limit of 130 km/h. To put it simply: Merkel said Nein!.
In contrast the support of leftwing politicians, there is also the important and powerful lobby of VDA (Verband der Automobilindustrie, a German interest group of the German automobile industry), AVD (Germany's oldest automobile club), ADAC (Germany's and Europe's largest automobile club), Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Opel, etc. is against a speedlimit. They and many Germans even suggest Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger, which could be interpretated like 'free speeds for free people'.

The overall safety record of German autobahns is generally better than other European highways. So, safety could be an issue but there is not direct correlation between the safetyrecord and the lack of a speedlimits. Countries like France or Spain are losing more people on the road despite their smaller population.
So, i think it is safe to conclude that there won't be a maximumspeed imposed on the Autobahns. I would like to see the German system extended over some European countries (if possible).

There aren't many advantages for a nationwide speedlimit.

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Agree. Last November I drove on A9 between Bayreuth and Berlin and despite the fact that motorway had 3+3 profile for almost whole lenght, most people were driving 110-130 km/h (even on non-limited sections). That's the most economical speed which makes travelling fast enough IMO.
Another argument in favour for lacking a speedlimit, because the traffic regulates itself. What introduce a speedlimit while most people drive on non-limited sections like there is a speedlimit?

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yeah I think so too. Speeding should only be allowed on really quiet 2x2 motorways or moderate 2x3 autobahnen. I always find France much more relaxing to drive in, in Germany there's always some ******* on your bumper when you overtake a truck or a line of trucks with 130 km/h.
*******s on your bumper are also quite common in other countries, you should know the Dutch term 'bumperklever'. Having a speedlimit doesn't change the fact some people drive like idiots.
Despite having a smaller population, the safety record in France is worse than in Germany. Perhaps people believe driving in France is much more relaxing, the records indicate otherwise.
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Last edited by 909; January 17th, 2009 at 03:04 PM.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 03:35 PM   #1663
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If all Frech motorways were as congested as those around Paris, no one would have the idea to say driving in France is more comfortable than in Germany...
France loses much more people per driven kilometer on its roads than Germany, not only the overall road system but also and especially if you consider motorways only. You will get the same result if you compare Germany to Italy, to Spain, UK, USA, ... It's fact that the German Autobahnen belong to the safest roads on the planet.
There's no need for a general speed limit and I hope Germany will never have one.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 03:38 PM   #1664
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I agree with 909. I think that on rural highways here, even single carriageways with low enough traffic volumes, they should take a leaf out of Germany's book and post a recommended speed but allow drivers to travel whatever speed they like, instead of the statewide (and almost nationwide - one state doesn't implement it) speed limit of 110 km/h.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #1665
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Originally Posted by 909 View Post
no one forces you to drive very fast and 200 km/h is only functional for empty stretches.
The problem is, that there are drivers on German motorways which drive just 100 (which I think is really a bit too slow), but also drivers on the left lane with 200. So there is a big difference in speed between lots of drivers. When I am driving like 130 (my favorite speed), it's difficult to keep that speed when overtaking a slower car since there are much faster cars in the left lane. Especially on 2 by 2 - motorways it's a problem when overtaking trucks: If you keep your 130 it does not take a long time until you have a 200-driving BMW or Audi directly behind you forcing you to press the pedal and drive faster... That's also the reason why the fuel consumption is higher than for example in France: speeding - 130 - speeding - 130 ....
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Old January 17th, 2009, 04:14 PM   #1666
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Speeding on most Autobahns doesn't get you any faster overall. People accelerating all the time to 180 km/h have to break every few kilometers or so due to overtaking cars/trucks/buses etc. Besides speeding might be fun, it doesn't give a lot of practical reasons to speed.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 04:14 PM   #1667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LT1550 View Post
If you keep your 130 it does not take a long time until you have a 200-driving BMW or Audi directly behind you forcing you to press the pedal and drive faster...
If they are approaching from behind, then provided that you have changed lanes into a safe gap in traffic, it should be their responsibility to slow down to avoid a collision.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 04:26 PM   #1668
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yes, let it be his responsibility, but that's not what I understand of comfortable driving.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 05:09 PM   #1669
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Originally Posted by LT1550 View Post
The problem is, that there are drivers on German motorways which drive just 100 (which I think is really a bit too slow), but also drivers on the left lane with 200. So there is a big difference in speed between lots of drivers. When I am driving like 130 (my favorite speed), it's difficult to keep that speed when overtaking a slower car since there are much faster cars in the left lane. Especially on 2 by 2 - motorways it's a problem when overtaking trucks: If you keep your 130 it does not take a long time until you have a 200-driving BMW or Audi directly behind you forcing you to press the pedal and drive faster... That's also the reason why the fuel consumption is higher than for example in France: speeding - 130 - speeding - 130 ....
True, I will admit this is sometimes a disadvantage of the German Autobahn. Nevertheless i do not see in this an argument for a speedlimit. In this case, people have to wait for overtaking. If you are the one overtaking with 130 km/h, than other people have to wait for you if they were faster. You are not responsible for their fast driving, they just have to wait. It's just like Robosteve said: "it should be their responsibility to slow down".

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Speeding on most Autobahns doesn't get you any faster overall. People accelerating all the time to 180 km/h have to break every few kilometers or so due to overtaking cars/trucks/buses etc. Besides speeding might be fun, it doesn't give a lot of practical reasons to speed.
Speeding doesn't work if you do it on an busy Autobahn. Speeding does work on a not so busy Autobahn like the A31, especially outside working hours. So speeding could be functional. At nighttime it can be functional for long distances.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 05:22 PM   #1670
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If all Frech motorways were as congested as those around Paris, no one would have the idea to say driving in France is more comfortable than in Germany...
France loses much more people per driven kilometer on its roads than Germany, not only the overall road system but also and especially if you consider motorways only. You will get the same result if you compare Germany to Italy, to Spain, UK, USA, ... It's fact that the German Autobahnen belong to the safest roads on the planet.
There's no need for a general speed limit and I hope Germany will never have one.
I agree that there shouldn´t be a speedlimit and that German motorways are very save, but they are not the most confortable to drive on and that has to be admitted, too. The asphalt should be differently.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 05:26 PM   #1671
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I absolutly agree to 909!!!
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Old January 17th, 2009, 05:54 PM   #1672
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I absolutly agree to 909!!!
So do I, and I would just like to add that just because it sometimes isn't safe to drive more than 130 km/h, doesn't mean that there should be such a limit imposed. It should be up to the driver, and not the government, to determine what the safest speed to travel is - of course the government can post a recommended speed, but if the government thinks it's safe to travel at 90 km/h, but I know the road and feel that I can safely drive 150 km/h, I should be able to do that. Speed limits have a place in towns and cities to reduce congestion and ensure pedestrian safety, but in rural areas I feel that they are quite unnecessary.

I actually find that restrictive speed limits can sometimes make driving more dangerous - for instance, there's a highway two hours north of here called the New England Highway that has a speed limit of 100 km/h. If I drive 100, I very easily get bored and feel that things are going very sluggishly, which can make it easy to inadvertently lose concentration. I find the safest speed to maintain on that particular road is about 120 or 125, which causes the road to hold my attention much better, so I'm less likely to get bored.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 06:46 PM   #1673
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I think the speed limits should not be restricted to 130 km/h on all Autobahns, but the tremendous increase in truck traffic just doesn't makes it safe anymore to speed on all Autobahns. About 60% already has a speed limit, and I would like to see some more.

To be frank, considering road layout, the German Autobahn network is by far not suitable for unlimited speeds, comparing it to neighboring countries such as the Netherlands and France shows their motorways have far higher design standards. I'm not only talking about pavement quality, but especially exit ramps and interchange layout. I don't think it's very safe that you have to decelerate to say, 80 - 90 km/h to take a 40 km/h exit ramp while others fly by at 180+ km/h on the next lane.

To visualize things, I don't think it's safe to speed with 180 km/h or more with this kind of truck traffic. This view is common on many mainline German Autobahns.
[IMG]http://i42.************/ouo0sj.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 17th, 2009, 06:57 PM   #1674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponsor View Post
Agree. Last November I drove on A9 between Bayreuth and Berlin and despite the fact that motorway had 3+3 profile for almost whole lenght, most people were driving 110-130 km/h (even on non-limited sections). That's the most economical speed which makes travelling fast enough IMO.
I regurarely drive on the A3 between Köln and Frankfurt (3+3) and I would say, 130 is about the median speed, meaning 50% of all cars (not including trucks and buses) drive faster than 130 and the other 50% drive slower than 130. On Sundays, the number is even higher, meaning me being one of the slowest while driving at 140.

I am against a general speed limit, there already are limits nearly everywhere where they make sense because of hills, curves, bad coniditions.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 11:17 PM   #1675
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
To visualize things, I don't think it's safe to speed with 180 km/h or more with this kind of truck traffic. This view is common on many mainline German Autobahns.
I agree, but I think that it should be the responsibility of the driver to make that judgment, rather than being enforced as a speed limit.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 01:56 AM   #1676
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I don't think it's very safe that you have to decelerate to say, 80 - 90 km/h to take a 40 km/h exit ramp while others fly by at 180+ km/h on the next lane.[/IMG]
IMO I think there's a far greater risk with the accelerating lanes being far too short. You rarely have the length to adapt your speed when coming on when you have a car, not to mention the problems that arise when trucks try to enter a 2x2 lane Autobahn with unlimited speed.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 11:05 AM   #1677
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To be frank, considering road layout, the German Autobahn network is by far not suitable for unlimited speeds, comparing it to neighbouring countries such as the Netherlands and France shows their motorways have far higher design standards. I'm not only talking about pavement quality, but especially exit ramps and interchange layout. I don't think it's very safe that you have to decelerate to say, 80 - 90 km/h to take a 40 km/h exit ramp while others fly by at 180+ km/h on the next lane.
Since when have Dutch French motorway better design standards? Missing c/d lanes, narrow or missing auxiliary lanes and bloody tight aligned slip roads are the reality on motorways in these two countries. Junction layouts aren't particularly good in Germany. But to claim it were better in the Netherlands or France is simply wrong.

And I have yet too see a 3,75 m wide motorway lane outside Germany.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 11:14 AM   #1678
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Nearly all new motorways in Central Europe are build with 3,75m lanes AFAIK.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 11:24 AM   #1679
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Dutch designs for motorways are 3.5 m wide lanes.

I'm more worried about our other roads, 2.75 m wide lanes is really too narrow if you think a truck is up to 2.6 m wide excluding mirrors.
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Old January 20th, 2009, 06:25 PM   #1680
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Germany has 3.75m in newer stretches, 3.25m in older stretches.

2.5m per lane guaranteed on all B and L roads (B usually built with 3.25m), 2x2m guaranteed for K roads (narrower public roads require turnouts).
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