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Old January 26th, 2009, 12:49 PM   #1701
Robosteve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deranged View Post
Driving on highways with artifically low speed limits through sparsely populated rural areas on roads with high design limits causes boredom and fatigue, which is the main reason I believe in higher / unlimited speed through such areas.

The way I see it, people who intend to drive dangerously will do so regardless of whether there are speed limits.
I agree completely.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 01:19 PM   #1702
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But speeding is annoying and that makes the difference between driving in Germany and USA. And I don't think it's good to let everybody use his car for whatever he wants. That's the main reason for me to plade for speed limits in Germany.
Huh? If you've earned you're resources you are not allowed them as you wish (legally), such as on gas? I thought that was one of the founding principles of liberty that the US was founded on. So I dont get youre point about the gas issue, which if anything is an issue of environmental management (infrastructure planning with ecology in mind) and fuel technology.

About the speed limits, overly high speeds can increase the number of accidents and especially the severity thereof, and everyone understands that no sane municipality will allow speeds with which you cannot control you're vehicle adequately in populated areas. However, id say that most accidents happen, and especially on motorways, because of bad driving/tiredom etc, and to deal with that its more effective to have ones law enforcers regularly check the traffic for cars that are obviously not driving as can be expected.

Furthermore I, too, agree with deranged's post above.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 02:58 PM   #1703
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I only now read the previous pages of this thread, and I realised that I'm basically repeating what 909, Robosteve, Patrick and a few others have already said. 909 in particular covered things very well.

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But speeding is annoying and that makes the difference between driving in Germany and USA.
If traffic volumes are so high that overtaking at a moderate speed would be difficult due to the frequency of low- and high-speed vehicles, the road would be likely to already have speed limits due to the amount of traffic. In less busy sections, not only would such a situation be less frequent, it would also be easier to handle, given the greater speed differentials - overtaking consumes less time, therefore one is less likely to need to accelerate or decelerate, than where speed differentials are lower.

The problem can't be eradicated completely, so there will be some annoyance. But as 909 mentioned, this occurs in areas where speed limits exist as well. In the latter, speed differentials are lower, given that most people who speed do not do so by a large amount. Variations in speed in those cases are thus smaller but more frequent. In any case, I believe it is more annoying to drive at unnecessarily low speeds.

Another potential issue with unlimited speeds - speed differentials and deceleration when exiting a highway - is not a problem when the length of off-ramps is sufficient.

The only other issue I can think of is merging onto a highway - but we're not talking about fighting your way in peak hour onto Toronto's 401 here. Accerelation lanes of sufficient length and merge points of sufficient length are the two requirements.

On the topic of acceleration when merging, cloverleaf interchanges without collector/distributor carriageways are sometimes used in areas where speed limits exist. There, not only is the speed differential troublesome when merging, it is also large and unavoidable, given that the maximum speed at which the ramp can be travelled is far lower than the motorway speed. Where C/D carriageways exist, this issue is far less pronounced, since (1) traffic already on the C/D carriageway is travelling slower than motorway traffic and decelerating in order to take the cloverleaf off-ramp, thus reducing the speed differential, and (2) the C/D carriageway allows merging traffic to accelerate to motorway speeds before joining the mainline.

Trumpet interchanges and cloverleaf ramps on unlimited-speed roads simply need long accelerating lanes. Full 4-way cloverleaf interchanges on unlimited-speed roads require C/D systems, and may require them on speed-limited roads depending on the curve radius, mainline speed, and traffic volumes.

Last edited by deranged; January 26th, 2009 at 03:11 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 04:44 PM   #1704
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Highway to Heaven

Car Lands in Church Roof after Spectacular Accident

Police on Monday were trying to figure out exactly how a 23-year-old driver in a town near Chemnitz managed to crash his car into a church roof seven meters off the ground.

Forget the "Dukes of Hazard." In the eastern German town of Limbach-Oberfrohna on Sunday night, a 23-year-old driver speeding through the town center lost control of his vehicle, launched off an embankment and ended up smashed into the roof of the village church some seven meters (23 feet) up. And far from driving a 1969 Dodge Charger, as Bo and Luke Duke favored, the man was behind the wheel of a modest Skoda Octavia station wagon.

Just how the driver, who was evacuated out of the church attic and taken to the hospital with serious injuries, ended up flying so high remains something of a mystery. Police officer Knut Wagner told reporters merely that "the driver took off due to unexplained circumstances, flew some 30 meters (98 feet) through the air and ended up seven meters up in the church roof."

Police surmise that the driver's speed caused him to miss a corner and hit the embankment. The roof of the church was seriously damaged by the car, which remained lodged in the timbers until a crane could be brought in to remove it.

A blood test is to reveal whether the driver was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time of the incident. When asked just how such an accident could happen, Wagner responded: "That is a very good question. I've never seen anything like it."

Specialists, including physicists, are at the scene trying to reconstruct exactly what happened.

cgh -- with wire reports















How the hell did this happen?!
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Old January 26th, 2009, 05:25 PM   #1705
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I heard about it on the radio.
They said has was DUI.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 05:35 PM   #1706
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So he threw the car onto the church??

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[IMG]Is this on the way to Munich? Cause I was driving from Innsbruck a few weeks ago, and they had the divided northbound lanes, with the higher section only for trucks, and me, not paying attention accidently took the upper part and got a f***ing ticket!
How much was the ticket? Could the cops not understand that you made an honest mistake?
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Old January 26th, 2009, 05:47 PM   #1707
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Old January 26th, 2009, 06:06 PM   #1708
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Quote:
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But speeding is annoying and that makes the difference between driving in Germany and USA. And I don't think it's good to let everybody use his car for whatever he wants. That's the main reason for me to plade for speed limits in Germany.
The problem is; can people handle the freedom of no speed limits? I really adore the freedom they give drivers in Germany, no childish speed limits or signs, like in NL.

Also an issue; night speeding. While it might be safer because there's much less traffic on the roads, you can't really anticipate on what's ahead of you, because it's dark. So you can't really avoid potholes or deers on the road speeding with 180+ km/h.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 06:47 PM   #1709
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As for freedom - it comes down to driver training and education, and the driving culture and mentality IMO. As such, I'd entrust only a few countries with unlimited speeds. Some, such as Australia, the US and Canada could use higher rural freeway limits though.

As for night driving - that's true. A night speed limit for otherwise unlimited sections could work; the hazards are more than just deer and potholes. Still, if it's set too low, widespread non-compliance would defeat the purpose.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 07:02 PM   #1710
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What are other hazzards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Also an issue; night speeding. While it might be safer because there's much less traffic on the roads, you can't really anticipate on what's ahead of you, because it's dark. So you can't really avoid potholes or deers on the road speeding with 180+ km/h.
Majority of European motorways have fences to prevent animals on roads. Although animals can sometimes find their way to enter motorways those accidents are rare. I also don't believe you can see a pothole on time with 200 km/h even during daylight.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 08:51 PM   #1711
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In addition to animals (I agree, rare) and potholes (depends on the size):

- Judging the speed of other vehicles is more difficult at night, and unlimited-speed roads generally have higher speed differentials, compounding the problem.
- There's the tightness of curves, which is harder to judge in the dark.
- There's also the visibility of signs, road markings, interchanges, and variations in lane configurations.
- Then there's the visibility of water on the road.
- And of course, there is less visibility of extraordinary situations such as accidents, breakdowns, fallen branches and other debris on the highway.

On the other hand, there is the issue of fatigue. It should be noted that daytime fatigue and night fatigue are somewhat different - the former is usually caused by driving, while the latter occurs naturally. However, artificially low night speed limits would exacerbate fatigue. It's a tradeoff.

Still, the list above provides an argument, but not a compelling reason for night speed limits - ie, if people can be trusted to drive at a reasonable speed in the daytime, why not at night? After all, if we assume the vast majority of drivers to be sufficiently safe, we could say that they would take more care at night and generally drive more slowly than in the daytime by choice, given that they would be aware of the potential hazards - whether explicitly, unconsciously, or even due to the moral hazard issue.

That's why although I think night speed limits could work, I don't have a strong opinion either way on the issue.

Last edited by deranged; January 26th, 2009 at 09:00 PM.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 12:35 AM   #1712
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the amount of traffic in germany often doesn't allow very fast driving anyway, especially during the day - but also during the night. it's not very uncommon to be stuck in traffic in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night.

SpamKing - are you sure, you got the ticket just for taking the truck lane? these kind of 'truck' lanes have often considerably lower speed limits than the 'regular' lanes. you were probably just too fast on the truck lane. there is no law that forbids you to use these kind of separate lanes.
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Old January 31st, 2009, 08:16 PM   #1713
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Old January 31st, 2009, 08:22 PM   #1714
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What's wrong with the spelling?
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Old January 31st, 2009, 08:27 PM   #1715
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The é should have been è in Liège.
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Old January 31st, 2009, 08:47 PM   #1716
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Right
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Old January 31st, 2009, 09:03 PM   #1717
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I see that Germans started putting the country ovals by every foreign destination. They used to do that only in special cases, when it was needed to be more informative, like I (Italy) by Munich, rather than an Italian city, or CH, also by München. Or Mulhouse and F by it, b/c it's more about France as such than just Mulhouse. But I know most foreign cities didn't have ovals beside, like Salzburg, Bregenz, Basel, Paris...

Last edited by Verso; January 31st, 2009 at 09:08 PM.
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Old January 31st, 2009, 09:18 PM   #1718
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Quote:
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I see that Germans started putting the country ovals by every foreign destination. They used to do that only in special cases, when it was needed to be more informative, like I (Italy) by Munich, rather than an Italian city, or CH, also by München. Or Mulhouse and F by it, b/c it's more about France as such than just Mulhouse. But I know most foreign cities didn't have ovals beside, like Salzburg, Bregenz, Basel, Paris...
I think it could probably be quite useful for non-European travellers. For instance, I wouldn't have known what country Liège was in.
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Old January 31st, 2009, 09:19 PM   #1719
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I've never seen an oval saying "NL" on the BAB 3, though Arnheim (Arnhem) is the target city quite a while. Utrecht is added after Oberhausen, also without an oval. Is this something new or so? The Poland-syndrom or what?
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Old January 31st, 2009, 09:25 PM   #1720
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Ovals are being used for a long time in Germany, Austria and formey Yugoslavia. I like these, because they can give quickly a kind of short information about the long-distance-destination without knowing all the names of the city on the route to that country. I am realy in favour of using them.

I have never seen them in the Netherlands, and only once in Belgium (Brussels). In Germany they are more common, like the A99 near Munich. ("A" and "I").

In Austria, even ovals can be found with "TR" and "GR" (for the route through former Yugoslavia).
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