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Old September 19th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #3141
bewu1
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Do you know whether it wil be any major reconstruction works on D1-R46-R52 Ostrava-Olomunec-Brno-Mikulov in 2016?
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Old September 19th, 2015, 09:58 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Even the most extreme form of Lewis-Mogridge does not posit that adding road capacity makes congestion worse. Adding road capacity in the city centre (which the Blanka Tunnel does not do) would probably add cars to the city centre, but adding road capacity under the city centre (bypassing it) will not.
The city centre is full of cars today causing congestion daily, you can't add there much more. This tunnel will make travelling by car in the whole city more attractive and modal share of individual cars will rise. It will fuel further suburbanisation, more people will be able to travel by car further from the city, making more people completely car-dependent. And of course, more people will use cars instead of less harmfull means of transport like public transport etc.
For 1,6 billion euro Prague could get new metro line D (which was postponed because construction of this tunnel) or completion of tram and rail network in the whole city for several times.
There was reason this tunnel never get EIA or any funding from the EU.
Further reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
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Old September 19th, 2015, 10:21 PM   #3143
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Originally Posted by 1+1=3 View Post
The city centre is full of cars today causing congestion daily, you can't add there much more. This tunnel will make travelling by car in the whole city more attractive and modal share of individual cars will rise. It will fuel further suburbanisation, more people will be able to travel by car further from the city, making more people completely car-dependent. And of course, more people will use cars instead of less harmfull means of transport like public transport etc.
For 1,6 billion euro Prague could get new metro line D (which was postponed because construction of this tunnel) or completion of tram and rail network in the whole city for several times.
There was reason this tunnel never get EIA or any funding from the EU.
Further reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
I'm not opposed to Metro Line D. I do not reject the mainstream view of induced demand, but the idea that more people will buy cars is not in evidence. In general, your argument makes many leaps of faith that do not logically follow from your premises. One glaring example is your implicit claim that public transport is necessarily less harmful than cars. I have three cars, all of which are electric (two from the factory and one converted). They are less harmful than many forms of public transportation.

Back to the topic, bypass tunnels typically reduce congestion in urban centres. There is no reason to expect it will be any different in Prague. In a few years, we'll have good data.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 12:53 AM   #3144
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Prague's tunnel complex Blanka, direction from the north to the south. Strahovsky tunnel, tunnel Mrazovka and Zlichovsky tunnel follow. This is the western part of Prague's city ring. All in tunnels.



And opposite direction from Barandovsky bridge towards Troja.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 12:27 PM   #3145
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I do not reject the mainstream view of induced demand, but the idea that more people will buy cars is not in evidence.
If you invest money in infrastructure for cars, add more roads and make car traffic inside the city more fluent, it's quite logical people will use cars more for their journeys.

Quote:
One glaring example is your implicit claim that public transport is necessarily less harmful than cars. I have three cars, all of which are electric (two from the factory and one converted). They are less harmful than many forms of public transportation.
Any evidence for such claim? Cars are most space-demanding means of transport possible, city need to built and maintain extremely expensive roads for them, cars have to park somewhere (in case of Prague, parked cars on streets takes about quarter of the whole city), cars are causing congestion and are most time consuming for other means of transport on the streets (pedestrians, public transport), without cars, traffic lights would't be even necessary. And of course, car traffic cause many deaths and injuries. And it's completely ineffective to move 1 ton of metal with 1,2 person on average.

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bypass tunnels typically reduce congestion in urban centres.
Only in case you restrict car traffic in the city centre. Prague is monocentric city and most traffic goes inside the wider city centre so this bypass is just adding more road capacity to allow even more people to use cars in the city, travel longer distances for a short time by car, making cars more attractive.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 12:42 PM   #3146
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What about Prague R1 ring motorway, when it's going to be opened?

IMHO, this city ring is needed. See the bright side of it > at least, it's in tunnels. Look in Poland, they are building right now 3-level interchange and huge open-air and elevated roads in the middle of downtown Łódź . Prague's "solution" is by much wiser.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 12:46 PM   #3147
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The construction of the next section could begin in 2018... The construction of the last section could begin in 2030 at the earliest. Source: project pages.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:08 PM   #3148
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Source: project pages.
In my experience they are highly unreliable when it comes to future construction dates. I compiled some information about first-class roads in CZ in 2011, and I updated them to 2015, and every single project was delayed, most by at least 4 years, some by over 6 years and some indefinitely.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:20 PM   #3149
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Correct. That's why I wrote "could". I think the best answer is: no one knows .
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Old September 20th, 2015, 07:34 PM   #3150
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Originally Posted by 1+1=3 View Post
If you invest money in infrastructure for cars, add more roads and make car traffic inside the city more fluent, it's quite logical people will use cars more for their journeys.
only if they already want to use a car in the first place. should not the infrastructure support the desire of people?
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Old September 20th, 2015, 09:37 PM   #3151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In my experience they are highly unreliable when it comes to future construction dates. I compiled some information about first-class roads in CZ in 2011, and I updated them to 2015, and every single project was delayed, most by at least 4 years, some by over 6 years and some indefinitely.
That's because few years ago all construction dates were shown as the soonest date that is technically and legally possible, but not realistic. They didn't take disponible funding and a standard duration of pre-construction procedures into account.

Since last two years MoT has a new transport strategy and future construction dates are being predicted more precisely, still not perfectly. But this does not apply to non-governmental projects such as the Prague's City Ring. On the other hand the Outer Ring Road (D0 motorway from the 1st January 2016) is a governmental project, so the construction dates of this project can be taken as seriously meant ones.
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Old September 21st, 2015, 03:52 PM   #3152
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D0 motorway from the 1st January 2016
Is the rededication finally approved? Was there any change of the list or are still the same R roads planned to be renamed to D roads? IIRC it was also planned to rededicate some I roads to R roads? Is there a list/map showing the agreed status of 1st January 2016?
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old September 21st, 2015, 06:27 PM   #3153
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Yes, there were some changes, in the end almost all current Rs are being promoted to Ds. There was really no technical reasons not to do so (the earlier proposals ommited some less significant R's, but the final solution is based more on technical merits rather then road significance). Some Is are to be promoted to Rs. All are dual carriageways without any level crossings.

Map, Leaflet (in Czech)

Mapman may provide some additional information/corrections of the abovestated as, if I'm not mistaken, he's the driving force behind the recategorisation.
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Old September 21st, 2015, 07:31 PM   #3154
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D3 Borek Úsilné

https://www.zonerama.com/sudr/Album/918179


http://www.dalnice-d3.cz/fotogalerie...-7-do-3-8-2015


http://www.dalnice-d3.cz/fotogalerie...4-do-20-8-2015
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 03:01 AM   #3155
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
only if they already want to use a car in the first place. should not the infrastructure support the desire of people?
Its just about a higher usage of cars already existing. Not necessarily about buying one or not, thats a longer-scale impact.

The bigger problem is, like told, that money is missing elsewhere. Even if someone uses electric cars, to built them uses more ressources than public transport does. Not counting garages or just the physical space inside of an old city which doea not widen.

So in fact, for me the completion of MO would make more sense for far distances, to keep this traffic out of the city instead giving it a freeflow inside of it.

But for public transport must be a clear priority over individual inside the city, say a political will to do it.

I like driving with car and discussing street works usw. But it stays true, that individual transport helps a much smaller share of population than public transport does. Old and Young people benefit much more.

If you want to know what happens if citys are bulit for cars only you can easily find it in USA at much places. It was not only desire of people, but also the big dar manufacturing companies, which bought whole networks of busses just to put them down and kill this competitor.

Lets just say that not all desires are good. Not even for ones self. Like every so often you see the american poor voting for those demolishing everything helping them for decades....

Coming from Saxony i dont like to take up the cudgels for socialism. But america has cancer, individualism called capitalism in the last stadium. Seems to be virulent....
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 11:14 AM   #3156
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only if they already want to use a car in the first place. should not the infrastructure support the desire of people?
Well, nobody asked me. Nobody asked anybody, there was no referendum. If the city had asked people, here are yours 1,6 billion euro from taxes, do you wish 6 kms of motorway inside the city, which will calm traffic in small part of the city and encourage people to use cars in the whole city even more (many drivers using that tunnel are not even from Prague but people from suburbs) or do you wish to enlarge tram plus rail network in the whole city or built new metro line, which will help hundreds thousands in the large portion of the city (and EU could even pay us some cost so we will spare up) - I'm not sure what would win.
It was scam from the beginning, claim was the cost will be 0,7 billion.
Investments in public transport have benefits for all - modal share of public transport is about twice that of cars, unlike cars public transport can use anybody, it's much less harmful for the city enviroment and require much less space, public transport is good even for drivers - more people use public transport, less cars on the roads, less congestion, more time spared (and no new roads needed).
Btw, Prague's whole year budget is about 1,6 billion euros and part for all infrastructure investments is about 0,3 billion (and declining because of the rising running costs of the city), so because of these 6 kms of motorway Prague didn't invest in anything else for about 5 years! You can see it in entire city how the infrastructure is rundown. Year running costs of this tunnel are quite high as well (about 15 million eur).
Oportunity costs are enormous, this motorway was complete lunacy.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 01:27 PM   #3157
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Well, nobody asked me. Nobody asked anybody, there was no referendum. If the city had asked people, here are yours 1,6 billion euro from taxes, do you wish 6 kms of motorway inside the city, which will calm traffic in small part of the city and encourage people to use cars in the whole city even more (many drivers using that tunnel are not even from Prague but people from suburbs) or do you wish to enlarge tram plus rail network in the whole city or built new metro line, which will help hundreds thousands in the large portion of the city (and EU could even pay us some cost so we will spare up) - I'm not sure what would win.
It was scam from the beginning, claim was the cost will be 0,7 billion.
Investments in public transport have benefits for all - modal share of public transport is about twice that of cars, unlike cars public transport can use anybody, it's much less harmful for the city enviroment and require much less space, public transport is good even for drivers - more people use public transport, less cars on the roads, less congestion, more time spared (and no new roads needed).
Btw, Prague's whole year budget is about 1,6 billion euros and part for all infrastructure investments is about 0,3 billion (and declining because of the rising running costs of the city), so because of these 6 kms of motorway Prague didn't invest in anything else for about 5 years! You can see it in entire city how the infrastructure is rundown. Year running costs of this tunnel are quite high as well (about 15 million eur).
Oportunity costs are enormous, this motorway was complete lunacy.
Not completely true. Prague opened several metro stations, invests in trams heavily, opened a train stop. Not somthing huge but also not nothing.

What Prague really needs and what wouldn't cost Prague almost anything is the Prague's ring. Prague ahould foremost work on the paperwork here, making sure that all city parts will comply fast. That would be much more sensible and costing peanuts.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 01:49 PM   #3158
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It is not a motorway a it is surely not a lunacy, that's just your private opinion. These tunnels are a common and modern way of distributing car traffic around city centre. For example Madrid (M30) or Stockholm (Södra and Nörra Länken) did almost the same - long tunnels at the periphery of the city centre. Blanka project is a great win for many parts of the city.

I agree though, that the city centre shall be closed for through traffic. Between Mánesův most and most Legií all cars except for residential and supply traffic should be banned, immediately.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 03:32 PM   #3159
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Not completely true. Prague opened several metro stations, invests in trams heavily, opened a train stop. Not somthing huge but also not nothing.

What Prague really needs and what wouldn't cost Prague almost anything is the Prague's ring. Prague ahould foremost work on the paperwork here, making sure that all city parts will comply fast. That would be much more sensible and costing peanuts.
Prague outer ring should have been built as priority. Prague city ring should have least priority, because is excessively expensive and solve almost nothing, only encourage more people to use cars.
Anyway, 1,6 billion euros on investments is missing and Prague is not even able to repair ordinary roads and is heavily in debt. It's called opportunity cost, we got 6 kms of new motorway and lost 1,6 billion euros of investments in new tram lines, railroads and public transport in general for the whole city. And of course, EU gave us nothing, because this motorway didn't undergo EIA (because it would failed).

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Originally Posted by mapman:cz View Post
It is not a motorway a it is surely not a lunacy, that's just your private opinion. These tunnels are a common and modern way of distributing car traffic around city centre. For example Madrid (M30) or Stockholm (Södra and Nörra Länken) did almost the same - long tunnels at the periphery of the city centre. Blanka project is a great win for many parts of the city.

I agree though, that the city centre shall be closed for through traffic. Between Mánesův most and most Legií all cars except for residential and supply traffic should be banned, immediately.
Madrid is three times larger than Prague and Stockholm has different geography (many islands), you really can't compare these with Prague. BTW, Stockholm introduced congestion tax 8 years ago, when we will get one in Prague finally? And what about financial condition, do they built these tunnels while their public transport is waiting for reconstructions and enlargements and their ordinary roads are crumbling?

Mánesův most - Most Legií section should have been calmed twenty years ago with Strahovský tunnel opening. Together with Karmelitská etc. Blanka is bypassing whole magistrala motorway running though the city centre so it should be calmed now. But even after that, there are surely more prior investments than new motorways in Prague.

Last edited by 1+1=3; September 22nd, 2015 at 03:49 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 08:58 PM   #3160
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The motorway D3 section Bošilec-Ševětín – 8,1km construction should start in the midlle of September. This week the contract will be signed with the Company MTS + SWIETELSKY + DOPRASTAV. The estimated time for completion is 48 months, the maximum period for the opening is 36 months.
https://www.rsd.cz/wps/portal/web/do...a41-420a-9750-
Construction of D3 section Bosilec-Sevetin began (source).
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