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Old September 25th, 2015, 01:51 PM   #3161
MichiH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemo View Post

Doesn't it count as a "motorway"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
Why doesn't the Blanka tunnel in Praha count as a "motorway project"?
MO: Prague-Malovanka – Prague-Troja 5.5km (2007 to 19th September 2015) – projectmap

Is my data correct?
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Old September 25th, 2015, 03:05 PM   #3162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapman:cz View Post
It is not a motorway a it is surely not a lunacy, that's just your private opinion. These tunnels are a common and modern way of distributing car traffic around city centre. For example Madrid (M30) or Stockholm (Södra and Nörra Länken) did almost the same - long tunnels at the periphery of the city centre. Blanka project is a great win for many parts of the city.
Stockholm is geographically wedged by many water bodies and Madrid underwent an unhealthy construction spree. Neither of the two is exemplary for a city like Prague.

Prague is the largest city in central Europe that went through both World Wars virtually unscathed. But instead of taking care of its unspoilt cultural heritage, one rammed the North-South route through the city centre. The Blanka tunnel project might be a bit more sensitive, only at enormous cost however. Both of these high capacity routes provide an easy ride into the historic centre of the city which is simply not made for large quantities of cars.

Prague would be better off following cities like Paris or Amsterdam. Both completed their outer ring road to by-pass any sort of through traffic and both have then taken decisive steps to reduce car traffic in the central parts of their city to a bearable level. Removing the SJM would be a first step in that direction and a massive improvement for central Prague as well.
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Old September 25th, 2015, 04:08 PM   #3163
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MO or City Ring, Blanka is part of, is in terms of its location in city structure, function and configuration similar to Boulevard Periferique in Paris or A10 in Amsterdam (this one even has the exactly same length - 32 km), or Mittlererring in Munich - 28 km.

An urban expressway / ring road around wider city center is a tried and tested solution to reduce congestion especially needed in topographically difficult cities like Prague, which due to terrain constraints lack enough capacity in existing roads.

(SJM is completely different story though).

As regards public transport preference: Prague already has one of the highest shares of public transportation, which btw consumes most of the city budget (almost 40% compared to 4% in Vienna or Amsterdam!!!) on overall modal share, so there's little chance you can reduce current congestion by pumping even more money to the public transportation.

The immediate relief Blanka opening brought to many parts of the city just proves how useful it is and how worthwhile the investment was. It could surely be less expensive, if the design was less generous and the construction was better managed, but overall compared to similar projects, the price hike and delay were well within margins of what's the norm for projects of such scale (especially given that at least one year was wasted for legal battles over cost of extra works). And quite a sound success compared to, say The Big Dig, or BBI.

What 1+1=3 says is as accurate as the formula in his monicker. Sorry I couldn't resist.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 01:04 AM   #3164
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Well comparing to the debate, wich is just personal unfriendly, its worth mentioning how nice it was to read MichiH's post, plainly noting the start of a new project.

I agree that my feelings took me away in my response also. But all in all, a debate makes no sense, if opinions are used like hammers. The first step is to agree, that it is helpful to understand each others thinking, because at least knowing your enemy is a good idea. Maybe we could even accept, that nobody did his writing just for the like of making new theories. Furthermore, it might be true, that citys like Prague are in a situation, which is difficult at least. There are never enough financial ressources to do enough so that all sides are happy.

So the first thing important to me was mentioning, the public debate and influence to politics. If people feel that they have a bit of influence, and are heard their satisfaction about whatever happening is higher, even as they never all get everything they want. On the contrary, everyone knows how often NIMBYS and any other such funny animals occur in such discussion, which often burns much ideas, so that at the end nothing is possible without hate on at least one side, often on all. Its like a mirror to the discussion here. People get the government they earn. If every truth about disatvantages is used for shitstorms and flaming, politicians learn to lie.

I doubt, that its a good idea to easily compare Prague to one or another city. In single aspects this comparing might help to dig up some insights. But just to throw around some numbers isn't helpful.

I don't have a list of good numbers about roadlength, budget, modal share etc, for the biggest european citys. Even if i would have, it might start with doubting this numbers, not with discussing about possible explanations. What is clear is that additionally to the similarities also big differences are to find. So its just dishonest to pick out one or a small amount of factors, like they show the whole truth. Finally, one should accept to be very subjectiv. Given at least, that this is a Forum about roads.

Examples:
1. There is a huge variation in modal share in cities. These differences are grown over decades (i told about how the big corporations in the US literally killed competitors)
2. In eastern europe the change of political (and economical) system still is important. motorway network in "the west" evolved over half a century or more. That couldn't be done by eastern nations in shorter time (even if you take transfers by EU programs into account)
3. Some mistakes migt not be copied by eastern cities (the so called automotive city = autogerechte stadt)
4. money is a good value to compare different political efforts, but not the only one. Its hard to count several things in dollars (or koruna)
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Old September 26th, 2015, 02:00 AM   #3165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRazor View Post
MO or City Ring, Blanka is part of, is in terms of its location in city structure, function and configuration similar to Boulevard Periferique in Paris or A10 in Amsterdam (this one even has the exactly same length - 32 km), or Mittlererring in Munich - 28 km.
You seem to forget that the Boulevard Périferique as well as the A 10 around Amsterdam don't require as much tunnelling and bridging as the MO. These large scale engineering structures translate directly to high running cost. These high running costs eat up a large chunk of the transportation budget, whether its the budget of the Czech government or the city council of Prague, which means that the MO limits the ability to tackle other transportation issues. This is the real prize you pay for having this urban ring road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRazor View Post
An urban expressway / ring road around wider city center is a tried and tested solution to reduce congestion especially needed in topographically difficult cities like Prague, which due to terrain constraints lack enough capacity in existing roads.
One adjusts the traffic to the existing structures of a city and not the other way around. If the streets of Prague aren't wide enough then the number of cars need to be reduced.
The rebuilding of cities to cater for the needs of cars has been done in the second half of the 20th century. And it has failed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRazor View Post
The immediate relief Blanka opening brought to many parts of the city just proves how useful it is and how worthwhile the investment was.
This is just a short-term effect. From what we know from experience in other places is, that traffic will grow into the expanded road capacities and the currently relieved surface streets will eventually be as congested as they were before. In the end Prague are likely to have more car traffic and more costs to sustain the expensive infrastructures that made it possible. All this is exactly the opposite of what modern traffic engineering is aiming for.
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Old September 26th, 2015, 09:45 AM   #3166
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In next newspaper article you have simple map (part's 2-4 are finished) and video of traffic on some streets during same part of day before and after Blanka opening - see the difference.
http://praha.idnes.cz/politici-chtej...aha-zpravy_bur


Part 1 In preparation (before EIA) from Pelc Tyrolka crossing to Lanový Bridge
Part 2 Oldest part from Lanový bridge to Barrandov bridge
Part 3 From Barradov Bridge through Zlíchovský, Mrázovka, Strahovký tunnel to Malovanka intersection
Part 4 now finished Blanka - from Malovanka intersection through Brusnický, Dejvický, Bubenečského tunnels to Pelc Tyrolka crossing
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Old September 26th, 2015, 11:17 AM   #3167
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Nice video comparison. As expected, the video comparison shows that 1+1=2.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 01:38 PM   #3168
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The D1 motorway between interchange Jeníkov and Jihlava was opened to traffic on Friday after modernization (km 104,8–113,340).
https://www.rsd.cz/wps/portal/web/do...7-87116840af54
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Old September 29th, 2015, 10:48 PM   #3169
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R46

R46 between Vyškov and Prostějov. It seems to have been an highway airstrip. Are there more along Czech motorways & expressways?

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Old September 30th, 2015, 12:04 AM   #3170
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[QUOTE=ChrisZwolle;127465734]R46 between Vyškov and Prostějov. It seems to have been an highway airstrip. Are there more along Czech motorways & expressways?

The stretch on D1 between exit 134 and 141. Airplane bays are now rest areas.
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Old September 30th, 2015, 02:32 AM   #3171
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[QUOTE=Nils de Gothia;127467459]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
R46 between Vyškov and Prostějov. It seems to have been an highway airstrip. Are there more along Czech motorways & expressways?

The stretch on D1 between exit 134 and 141. Airplane bays are now rest areas.

I guess it is here? https://www.google.com/maps/@49.3814.../data=!3m1!1e3
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Old September 30th, 2015, 11:07 PM   #3172
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Next week, the contract for construction of S3 section between A4 and Jawor wilk be signed. Therefore the S3 section between A4 and Bolków appr. 35 km (the contract for construction of remaining section was signed today) will under construction. The last section between PL/CZ border is only 20 km long.
When Czech government will start tenders for construction of R11 sections north of Hradec Kralove?
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Old September 30th, 2015, 11:52 PM   #3173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
No. Here

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2994.../data=!3m1!1e3
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Old October 1st, 2015, 12:03 AM   #3174
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I guess it is here? https://www.google.com/maps/@49.3814.../data=!3m1!1e3[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Here is a link: http://jihlava.idnes.cz/letadla-na-d...ava-zpravy_mkk The ability to use this stretch as a runway will be kept.
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Old October 1st, 2015, 01:37 AM   #3175
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Quote:
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When Czech government will start tenders for construction of R11 sections north of Hradec Kralove?
The tendering process for construction of two sections of D11 with total length of 22 km from Hradec Králové to Jaroměř should happen in Q2/2016. That's what the ŘSD says in their leaflets which have been recently updated so I hope they are right. The rest to the Polish border is, well, distant future.
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Old October 1st, 2015, 12:29 PM   #3176
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That's what the ŘSD says in their leaflets which have been recently updated so I hope they are right.
I think http://www.rsd.cz/ website was redesigned. Where can I find the leaflets now?

For instance, the u/c D11 section had this link, the planned projects could be found here: http://www.rsd.cz/Stavime-pro-vas/Stavby-planovane.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old October 1st, 2015, 01:20 PM   #3177
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Should be useful a little bit:

Planned construction progress on the road and motorway network --> 2015
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Old October 1st, 2015, 06:34 PM   #3178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
I think http://www.rsd.cz/ website was redesigned. Where can I find the leaflets now?

For instance, the u/c D11 section had this link, the planned projects could be found here: http://www.rsd.cz/Stavime-pro-vas/Stavby-planovane.
After clicking on the specific project icon, you'll find a link "Ke stažení" under the map that will display a link to PDF leaflet.
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Old October 2nd, 2015, 12:10 AM   #3179
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To make It even more comfortable for you guys, here are maps of the remaining D11 sections and links to corresponding leaflets (in Czech) with estimated project dates. Putting into operation = UP:


Leaflet


Leaflet


Leaflet


Leaflet
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Old October 2nd, 2015, 11:45 AM   #3180
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D11: Praskacka – Hradek Kralove ~4km (July 2014 to August 2017) – projectmap

D11: Hradek Kralove – north of Smirice 15.2km (October 2016 to April 2020) – projectmap
D11: north of Smirice – Jaromer-North 7.4km (October 2016 to October 2019) – projectmap
R11: Jaromer-North – Trutnov-South 19.7km (2022 to 2024) – projectmap
R11: Trutnov-South – CZ/PL border (Kralovec) 21.2km (2019 to 2021) – projectmap
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

Been/driven: A, AND, B, CDN, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, EST, F, FIN, FL, GB, H, I, L, LV, LT, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, USA (My cumulative travel mapping)

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