daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 2nd, 2015, 03:02 PM   #3181
SRC_100
Registered User
 
SRC_100's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,084
Likes (Received): 3275

What is the most interested in from polish point of view, the stratch b/n polish border and Trutnov South seems to be earlier than next one. I think it is result of intergovernmental agreement.
SRC_100 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 2nd, 2015, 04:50 PM   #3182
HiRazor
Seriously Bohemian
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caput regni Bohemiae
Posts: 419
Likes (Received): 306

Maybe. However those dates are to be taken with a pinch of salt. As long as the UR (zoning permit) and SP (construction permit) fields are empty (or just projections based on wishful thinking), the room for delays due to environmental activism, NIMBYsm or expropriation litigations is pretty much unlimited.

The leaflets feature a small footnote "Jelikož výstavbu významných dopravních komunikací ovlivňuje velké množství faktorů, které se nedají předem předvídat, jsou uvedená data pouze orientační" which reads something like "because implementation of major infrastructure projects is influenced by many factors, which are difficult to assess, all the dates presented are indicative only". It isn't there for no reason. Unfortunately.
__________________

SRC_100, MichiH liked this post

Last edited by HiRazor; October 2nd, 2015 at 05:00 PM.
HiRazor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2015, 06:42 PM   #3183
HiRazor
Seriously Bohemian
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caput regni Bohemiae
Posts: 419
Likes (Received): 306

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
You seem to forget that the Boulevard Périferique as well as the A 10 around Amsterdam don't require as much tunnelling and bridging as the MO. These large scale engineering structures translate directly to high running cost. These high running costs eat up a large chunk of the transportation budget, whether its the budget of the Czech government or the city council of Prague, which means that the MO limits the ability to tackle other transportation issues. This is the real prize you pay for having this urban ring road.
While this is generally true and it would be much better if there was a way to build the MO cheaper, if e. g. Prague was flatter, or if it had a convenient void strip around its center left like Paris had in place of its defunct fortifications, it's a kind of a moot point, because it isn't flat and it lacks the convenient void land. If the tunnels are the only working solution (I will expand on it later), then it's tunnels you gotta build. You wouldn't suggest it's silly to build tunnels in the Alps, because the high costs constraint the ability of alpine countries to tackle other problems, would you?

Quote:
One adjusts the traffic to the existing structures of a city and not the other way around. If the streets of Prague aren't wide enough then the number of cars need to be reduced.
The rebuilding of cities to cater for the needs of cars has been done in the second half of the 20th century. And it has failed.
Actually it has always been the very other way around. Thourough history, the cities (and any human dwellings in general) and their structures have been gradually (and sometimes less gradually i. e. quite radically) adjusted and updated to accomodate the changing needs of its populations resulting from the evolving culture and technology. Conservationism is a relatively new phenomenon (late 19th century, really relevant only since the third third of the 20th century) and quite local (mostly Europe). But (mainstream) conservationism means increased protection of historical structures, not refusal of any adaptations to changing needs. Who would want to live in an apartment with medieval heating? Cities are above all functioning structures, they serve the needs of people and those which, for some reason (crucial resources dry out, major route shifts away...), fail to do so, shrink or die. It has happened so many times in history.

How it's relevant to Blanka/MO: due to natural constrains/topology and 19th/early 20th century urban planning there's basically only one principal road/street between Prague 6 & 7 (pop. some 250 000) and Prague 8 & 9 (approx. same pop.) districts, which has 1 lane down and 2 lanes up. W/o Blanka the street was obviously clogged most of the daytime. By clogged I mean stationary, not just heavy, traffic. The modal share of public transportation in Prague is bigger than any other developped city of its size. The public transportation eats as much as 40% of the city budget (compare it to 4% in Vienna or Amsterdam). Blanka costs are a piece of cake compared to what the city pumps into the public transportation each year. By car any journey through the wider city center takes noticeably more time than by public transportation.

Bottom line: despite pro-public transportation incentives (capacity, frequency and cheap fares) and its natural advantage of being faster, there is still enough people in cars clogging streets (because the existing capacity is so low). This is why further public transportation incentives won't work. There are then 3 options left:

1/ Keep the status quo (clogged streets) - no for me, or

2/ close the city for the cars altogether (mind MO is 32 km long, it doesn't serve just the historic center, but circumvents most 19th century suburbs with exceptions dictated by topology on the west bank of Vltava). Frankly it's not realistic, I don't know about any 1 million car-less city, the city would have sub-urbanize quickly. No for me as well. Or

3/ Offer (build) additional capacity in the least disturbing manner possible so that you can actually restrict street traffic without killing the city. This is the only viable solution. And this is what MO and Blanka is.

There is simply no example of a city doing 1 or 2 worth following. The examples you give are cities who have their respective MOs completed, can you imagine them (cities) without their ring roads? Not to mention they have bigger share of cars on their modal share than Prague.

Btw Munich is continually upgrading Mittlerer ring to the expressway standard adding new tunnels and interchanges to this days. So much for failed and abandoned policies.

Quote:
This is just a short-term effect. From what we know from experience in other places is, that traffic will grow into the expanded road capacities and the currently relieved surface streets will eventually be as congested as they were before. In the end Prague are likely to have more car traffic and more costs to sustain the expensive infrastructures that made it possible. All this is exactly the opposite of what modern traffic engineering is aiming for.
Problem is I fail to see a city successfuly practicing such a "modern traffic engineering". Give us an example so that we can discuss if that's a viable role model for Prague. Ams and Paris for the reasons stated above are clearly not.
__________________

mcarling, mapman:cz liked this post

Last edited by HiRazor; October 2nd, 2015 at 06:57 PM.
HiRazor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2015, 09:01 PM   #3184
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,406
Likes (Received): 2082

R6: Bosov – Lubenec 4.1km (May 2010 to October 2015) – projectmap

I think the section will be opened on 3rd November 2015, see news article. If I got it right, the construction of two sections is also announced to begin in 2016:


R6: Krusovice – Revnicov 4.2km (October 2016 to October 2019) – projectmap
R6: Revnicov – Nove Straseci 5.6km (October 2016 to October 2019) – projectmap

The project info (September 2015 version) indicates a beginning in October 2016.

The construction of the remaining R6 sections is announced to begin after 2020.
__________________

Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

Been/driven: A, AND, B, CDN, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, EST, F, FIN, FL, GB, H, I, L, LV, LT, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, USA (My cumulative travel mapping)
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2015, 09:09 PM   #3185
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

Here's a photo by ŘSD of R6.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

SRC_100, Luki_SL, makaveli6 liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #3186
mapman:cz
Ministerský rada
 
mapman:cz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU - CZ
Posts: 1,105
Likes (Received): 202

Actually, this section is a bit more advanced - pictures as of 2nd October by poljaq:

__________________
mapman

MichiH, Luki_SL, SRC_100, Nowax, 8166UY liked this post
mapman:cz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2015, 06:13 PM   #3187
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

Why did this section get priority? I mean, it's halfway between both ends of R6, seemingly a random stretch to construct first. I'm sure there's a reason for it...
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2015, 08:50 PM   #3188
mapman:cz
Ministerský rada
 
mapman:cz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU - CZ
Posts: 1,105
Likes (Received): 202

Around 2006 we had a strong right-wing government with a transport minister that accelerated many many kms of construction projects but without it being financially secured. Projects that had better conditions in terms of time needed for planing and permissions got priority. In 2008/2009 the financial crisis escalated and many projects were put on hold or even planing and preparation procedures were stopped. That's why we have R7 near Chomutov in operation despite the fact that many other sections closer to Prague were much more needed, that's why this section is now being finished. Since 2012/2013 we finally have a proper transport strategy with coordination of planing and financial matters. Howgh.
__________________
mapman

Last edited by mapman:cz; October 7th, 2015 at 12:22 AM.
mapman:cz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2015, 09:00 PM   #3189
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

I see. I hope they can accelerate the construction pace of motorways & expressways. At current pace it would take many decades before most of the planned motorways are constructed. For example a D3 completion from Prague to České Budějovice seems very far in the future. Not to mention the northern side of R1.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2015, 10:13 PM   #3190
historyworks
Perpetual Bohemian
 
historyworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Shoalhaven
Posts: 3,365
Likes (Received): 316

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Prague is the largest city in central Europe that went through both World Wars virtually unscathed. But instead of taking care of its unspoilt cultural heritage, one rammed the North-South route through the city centre. The Blanka tunnel project might be a bit more sensitive, only at enormous cost however. Both of these high capacity routes provide an easy ride into the historic centre of the city which is simply not made for large quantities of cars.

Prague would be better off following cities like Paris or Amsterdam. Both completed their outer ring road to by-pass any sort of through traffic and both have then taken decisive steps to reduce car traffic in the central parts of their city to a bearable level. Removing the SJM would be a first step in that direction and a massive improvement for central Prague as well.
One matter that appears to have been overlooked in this discussion is that there is hardly any possibility to park a car in central Prague. This actually applies in many cities. Therefore, building motorways around the ring is not going to cause deposit of cars into the centre but in fact take them out of the centre, which presently they have to traverse to get through the city from one side to the other. I don't think much of that traffic has its final destination in the city centre.

I would expect to see the present heavy traffic traversing through the centre of Prague from north to south and east to west diverted onto the rings when they are completed. (Hopefully this will eventually lead to demolition of the Magistrala!)

I have commuted to and in Prague a lot, both by public transport and car and, while I have found somewhere to park a car (for an appointment only and at some expense), using the cheap and very comprehensive public transport to go to and from the centre is a no-brainer. There is simply no incentive to drive a car into the centre and it's very uncomfortable and slow to drive through it to get to somewhere on the other side.

So imho Prague is following the right strategy with Blanka etc. The fact that it's tunnelled and expensive is a product of topography. Not many people understand that Prague is a high plateau cut very deeply by a river valley and its tributaries. Not an easy city for engineering.
__________________
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"

mcarling liked this post
historyworks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2015, 03:06 PM   #3191
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I see. I hope they can accelerate the construction pace of motorways & expressways. At current pace it would take many decades before most of the planned motorways are constructed. For example a D3 completion from Prague to České Budějovice seems very far in the future. Not to mention the northern side of R1.
All the problems at the moment are concentrated in the paperwork.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2015, 04:16 PM   #3192
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Aerial view of Lovosice - Řehlovice D8 motorway construction as of September 2015. Direction towards Germany.

__________________

SRC_100, MichiH, Nowax, pmaciej7 liked this post
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2015, 04:33 PM   #3193
tunnel owl
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 751
Likes (Received): 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
There is simply no incentive to drive a car into the centre and it's very uncomfortable and slow to drive through it to get to somewhere on the other side.
Most of those discussions tend to the argument, that money for streets should be spend for public-transport. In case of Prague, this money has already be spent on public-transport very well, since metro-construction started in 1968. In the 80s they even started new tram-routes whereas the tram-network is already impressive. So the modal-split is an already very good one in Europe, but I`m not a fan of superlatives. I suppose that the ones of Warsaw, Budapest and Vienna are at least equal.
tunnel owl no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #3194
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
One matter that appears to have been overlooked in this discussion is that there is hardly any possibility to park a car in central Prague. This actually applies in many cities.
The same applies to Amsterdam. It has a ring motorway (A10) with the same length as MO, and the 4 motorways feeding onto the A10 carry between 120,000 and 200,000 vehicles per day to and from the ring road, but only a small share of that ends up in the canal zone, where a four-lane road is rare.

For example, the southern part of A10 carries over 200,000 vehicles per day, but all exits towards the city center are ending up into two-lane streets within a kilometer.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2015, 04:53 PM   #3195
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The same applies to Amsterdam. It has a ring motorway (A10) with the same length as MO, and the 4 motorways feeding onto the A10 carry between 120,000 and 200,000 vehicles per day to and from the ring road, but only a small share of that ends up in the canal zone, where a four-lane road is rare.

For example, the southern part of A10 carries over 200,000 vehicles per day, but all exits towards the city center are ending up into two-lane streets within a kilometer.
The Prague's city ring should not have the ambition to serve the through traffic. It should have the ambition to serve connecting different parts of Prague.

A10 serves mostly the through traffic. Almost every time I drive to Den Haag or Rotterdam I take the A10 and millions do the same. It is not the plan that people that want to go from Usti nad Labem to Plzeń would have to take R0 in Prague. They should be taking R1.

Prague should concentrate on preparing the completion of R1 (The Prague's outer ring). This would be very cheap for Prague as the financing would come from the state budget and it would have a very high return to Prague, as it would leave all of the through traffic from the city completely.

Instead of throwing additional billions into the completion of the inner city ring (R0) it should throw millions into getting done the paperwork needed for the finishing of the R1. It should offer special deals that are not possible to refuse to the city parts that block the R1 and foremost it should get its city plan in order for this project. It should vividly cooperate with the Central Bohemian region on this as well.

Amsterdam is not so big a city compared to Prague and it generates not that much inner traffic, The Netherlands is however much more dense and generates enormous traffic. In Prague, there´s different problem, the city generates enormous traffic, but the country as such does not create that much traffic.

I guess that´s also what they address with the super project of the Almere - Amstelveen, to get the through traffic from A10 to A9.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2015, 04:59 PM   #3196
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

I agree R1 should be a priority. Large cities need a good bypass for regional and long-distance traffic. Imagine getting through Berlin on A100!

On the other hand, the eastern leg of MO would allow to turn a larger part of central Prague into a low-traffic zone.

The MO, especially the tunnelled segments in the west and now north too, are not suited for a high volume of trucks passing through Prague. They should use R1. The southern part of R1 is already heavily used by truck traffic (I'm thinking R1 may even be underdesigned with only 2x2 lanes, though completing R1 around Prague could alleviate the southern part).
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2015, 05:16 PM   #3197
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I agree R1 should be a priority. Large cities need a good bypass for regional and long-distance traffic. Imagine getting through Berlin on A100!

On the other hand, the eastern leg of MO would allow to turn a larger part of central Prague into a low-traffic zone.

The MO, especially the tunnelled segments in the west and now north too, are not suited for a high volume of trucks passing through Prague. They should use R1. The southern part of R1 is already heavily used by truck traffic (I'm thinking R1 may even be underdesigned with only 2x2 lanes, though completing R1 around Prague could alleviate the southern part).
I agree as well. There is indeed a plan to forbid the through trucks entering Prague aside for the express ways and motorways altogether. Most of the M0 is already closed for through trucks anyway (I am not sure about Blanka, but I guess it has the same regime as Jižní Spojka).

I am not against M0 and I am glad that Blanka opened. It is just that I think that Prague should right now have different priority than finishing M0. Especially because it has a say in the R1 matters. I guess there might be voices that say, that unless they will work on M0 now, it won't get to be done ever after R1 is finished. But that's simply stupid reasoning for not choosing a better priority.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 8th, 2015, 12:15 PM   #3198
1+1=3
Registered User
 
1+1=3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Awqakuq
Posts: 1,485
Likes (Received): 507

Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
One matter that appears to have been overlooked in this discussion is that there is hardly any possibility to park a car in central Prague.
Not true. The problem is there are too few drivers willing to pay for parking. There are literally thousands of unoccupied public parking spaces in central Prague, some garages were even turned into bars, discos etc. There's already too much parking lots in Prague 1 (both public and private) and streets are packed with cars (including sidewalks and zebras), while the capacity of streets remain the same. Hence in the city centre we get traffic jams even in ordinary streets, not only on main roads during rush hours.
City centre works as tourist industrial zone, there are many jobs, even more than residents, who has not left yet (including myself). While residents need only few cars and use them only on occasions, people working here use cars everyday (of course, majority use public transport), especially those living in suburbs etc. And industrial zone needs lot of catering too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
On the other hand, the eastern leg of MO would allow to turn a larger part of central Prague into a low-traffic zone.
How? Western segment of MO is touching city centre while the eastern goes kilometers away. Moreover, the city centre has too much incoming car traffic, this fact won't change even 10 city rings... only right parking policy, working city police, toll, better public transport including rail, more P+Rs etc. can change it.

Blanka tunnel has helped only Prague 7, which is bypassing, and few thousand of drivers, which spare some time and money. However, it is encouraging more people to use a car in a city. In the long term, this capacity motorway on the edge of the city centre will make things worse for the most part of the city. Even now the exists on the motorway are causing huge traffic jams, because cars in such quantities can't enter or leave the tunnel through ordinary streets. So more motorways inside the city will be needed because of this city ring.
Prague needs more P+Rs, better transfers to public transport, metro line D, which will serve large portion of the city, investments in rail network etc. to encourage people (mainly from suburbs and outskirts) to use public transport instead of car. Prague is going the opposite way for now, investing in motorways in the city, thus making transport by car more attractive and encouraging even more people to use cars. After finishing all public transport and rail projects, only few people would still need car. Probably some city ring will still be useful, but not as a motorway, but ordinary street.
Because of this tunnel, Prague lost 1,6 billion euros (oportunity cost) for investments in public transport and will lag behing cities like Vienna even more. More cars in the city will definitely not make Prague more liveable and attractive for people living there and external investments. Fortunately Prague has run out of money because of this tunnel so I hope this whole transportation policy, planned in the 60's together with commies outskirts, will be changed for something more sustainable.

Last edited by 1+1=3; October 8th, 2015 at 12:23 PM.
1+1=3 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2015, 03:28 AM   #3199
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,375
Likes (Received): 747

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Here's a photo by ŘSD of R6.
I love driving around the Czech countryside like this. It is so beautiful... nature, hills, old towns... Prague of course is beautiful also, but the country is lovely... and good food and beer
__________________
100 coups de fouet, si vous n'ętes pas morts de rire !

SRC_100 liked this post
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2015, 03:30 PM   #3200
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155


It, indeed is. I miss the landscape quite a lot.

In other news. The Blanka tunnel had already 1 million vehicles driving through in the last 20 days. That would mount to 50 000 vehicles per day.

http://www.novinky.cz/domaci/382990-...ilion-aut.html
__________________

8166UY liked this post
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autobahn, czech republic, highways, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium