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Old October 9th, 2015, 05:18 PM   #3201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
The Blanka tunnel had already 1 million vehicles driving through in the last 20 days. That would mount to 50 000 vehicles per day.
This means 50,000 less vehicles every day on the surface streets of central Prague.
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Old October 10th, 2015, 01:11 AM   #3202
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... or, for those who believe 1+1=3, those are 50,000 cars per day that would not have been on the road at all, but are now using the tunnel so that they can drive on the surface streets of Prague.

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Old October 10th, 2015, 01:13 AM   #3203
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honestly I would say 50 000 cars on 2x2 motorway is too much and they should have made it 3x3
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Old October 11th, 2015, 12:18 PM   #3204
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
(T60)I11: Ostrava-Krasne Pole – Ostrava-Poruba 6.7km (November 2012 to May 2015) – projectmap
http://gallery.ceskedalnice.cz/index...03-2015?page=1
Thanks . The pics seem to be up-to-date. I don't think, this section will be opened in May 2015........

The project page (December 2014 version) still claims May 2015.
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It obviously wont be opened. If they manage to open it in 2015 is to be seen.
The project page was updated in July 2015. The new estimated completion date is August 2017.

What's the reason for the delay?


I35: Priluky – Mstenovice 0.7km (November 2009 to October 2016) – projectmap

New deadline: November 2017.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old October 12th, 2015, 04:33 PM   #3205
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Quote:
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The project page was updated in July 2015. The new estimated completion date is August 2017.

What's the reason for the delay?
New deadline: November 2017.
Some of the building permits are still not issued because the ŘSD still doesn't own all the land for the Prodloužená Rudná (I11: Ostrava-Krasne Pole – Ostrava-Poruba)

I think that there were also some EIA problems because of this but I am not sure how this would affect the construction.

On the other side, the 9,75 kms long Krasne Pole - Opava section of I/11 should open to traffic tomorrow.


http://www.msstavby.cz/i11-prodlouze...-7-09-10-2015/

http://www.msstavby.cz/i11-prodlouze...-7-09-10-2015/
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Old October 12th, 2015, 07:12 PM   #3206
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The problem with forced land acquisition for Road construction in the Czech Republic is really strange. In Poland, the land for road construction is acquired by State when the road building permit is issued. Then the only open question is the matter of compensation. After if former owner leaves the land voluntarily, then the compensation is augmented by 5%. The scheme is simple and works smoothly.
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Old October 12th, 2015, 07:55 PM   #3207
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I've read about a road project in Nice, France, where the authorities offered a homeowner 7 times the market value of the property. That's just blackmail, homeowners should get the market value, moving expenses and maybe a small bonus, but situations where you can delay it so long that they want to offer you 7 times the actual value indicates a botched expropriation process.
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Old October 12th, 2015, 08:01 PM   #3208
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Quote:
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The problem with forced land acquisition for Road construction in the Czech Republic is really strange. In Poland, the land for road construction is acquired by State when the road building permit is issued. Then the only open question is the matter of compensation. After if former owner leaves the land voluntarily, then the compensation is augmented by 5%. The scheme is simple and works smoothly.
Yes it is a more efficient solution. Especially when you realize, that there actually is no other alternative anyway, the owners won't possibly change the fact that the road will be there at this stage. They can only prolong the whole process, causing additional costs.

Another point is, that the construction could start at the time when the ownership was not yet secured and not all building permits were issued.

I hope that at least this practice has been changed and new construction begins only when the ownership rights are 100 % secured as well as building permits, but I am not sure of it, especially with regard to the building permits.

The law that is applied in the Czech republic is, I would say, one of the main reasons why the paperwork is causing such tremendous problems. There is a huge space for inefficiencies, mistakes, delays. I am quite often wondering what would change this sluggishness of the Czech infrastructure public procurement, whether it could be done with more, better paid and more efficient bureaucrats only, or whether better law would suffice, or whether both would be necessary.

Last edited by Surel; October 12th, 2015 at 11:43 PM. Reason: gr
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Old October 12th, 2015, 08:13 PM   #3209
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I've read about a road project in Nice, France, where the authorities offered a homeowner 7 times the market value of the property. That's just blackmail, homeowners should get the market value, moving expenses and maybe a small bonus, but situations where you can delay it so long that they want to offer you 7 times the actual value indicates a botched expropriation process.
According the current Czech law, if I have it right, the landowners can get as much as 8 times the price of the property according to the market value based on the expert opinion. That is the price that the government can offer to the owners.

However, the expropriation price is I guess just the market value based on the expert opinion, or perhaps the court can adjust the price as well. So you see that there should be a incentive to sell the properties to the government, because once it begins the expropriation, you would get probably quite less.

However, because the expropriation process is finished just with the last court decision, including the final price, it takes enormous time. People can go to court and delay the whole thing for many years, hoping that they keep the property. As we often talk just about some small stripes of land, that don't really have much value, people can use this just to delay and apply some NIMBYsm pressure. They can also threaten with expropriation process in order to increase the price that the government offers for the lot.

Imagine a situation when the government agrees with 80 % of the landowners on certain price for which they would sell the land. But then you got one of two landowners that require much more. They can threaten with refusing to sell and forcing the state to go into the expropriation process which would take years. This was also the case of the D11 at Hradec Kralove...
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Old October 12th, 2015, 09:33 PM   #3210
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The legal scheme you have in the Czech Rep. is really strange. It can't work. The legal scheme we have in Poland is much better re: balance between public and private interests. If you look how land in Poland is divided into small units because of historic reasons, then you would realize that Polish approach is better and it enables quick building process.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 07:24 PM   #3211
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Quote:
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Some of the building permits are still not issued because the ŘSD still doesn't own all the land for the Prodloužená Rudná (I11: Ostrava-Krasne Pole – Ostrava-Poruba)
I though, there are construction works on this section
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Old October 13th, 2015, 07:58 PM   #3212
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I though, there are construction works on this section
There are construction works going on, but they can't work on all the length as they don't have permits for some objects.

You see, in CZ the permits are not aggregated for the whole construction, but are issued one at a time for all the objects that are required the permit.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 08:44 PM   #3213
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Quote:
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If you look how land in Poland is divided into small units because of historic reasons, then you would realize that Polish approach is better and it enables quick building process.
It wasn't always that easy in Poland. Some years ago our procedures were as convoluted as the Czech ones. Older forumers might remember that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
There are construction works going on, but they can't work on all the length as they don't have permits for some objects.

You see, in CZ the permits are not aggregated for the whole construction, but are issued one at a time for all the objects that are required the permit.
You mean they need separate construction permit for each structure like bridge, overpass etc?
That sucks.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 09:29 PM   #3214
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Because old Polish procedures were absolutely inadequate, they were modified
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Old October 13th, 2015, 09:49 PM   #3215
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That's what you do. If a system doesn't work (anymore), you change it. That's what happened in the Netherlands with plan approval procedures & air quality regulations. Plans don't get shot down anymore, while still conforming to national and EU regulations.

In Germany and the Czech Republic procedures hamper the development of road projects. Just look at the Femahrnbelt Tunnel from Denmark to Germany. The Danish EIS had 1,655 pages and 30 appeals / comments. The German report had a staggering 11,000 pages and 3,100 appeals / comments. With such complex procedures, errors are bound to be made and projects are much more likely to get delayed.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 11:12 PM   #3216
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On the other side, the 9,75 kms long Krasne Pole - Opava section of I/11 should open to traffic tomorrow.
photos from late afternoon after opening I/11 Mokré Lazce - before MÚK Krásné Pole
http://gallery.ceskedalnice.cz/index...ava/13-10-2015
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Old October 14th, 2015, 01:42 AM   #3217
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You mean they need separate construction permit for each structure like bridge, overpass etc?
That sucks.
Yes. Yes.
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Old October 14th, 2015, 07:35 AM   #3218
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OMG. What a bureaucracy!
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Old October 14th, 2015, 01:25 PM   #3219
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OMG. What a bureaucracy!
On the other side, it is not something so strange. Because even if you had only one proceeding, you would need attend it with the same kind of detail. The problem is not that every object requires permission, but the salami method that the ŘSD en thus constructors use here.

You can ask for building permission for the whole length of the construction, including all the objects etc, in one document, but you need to fulfil all the necessary conditions for all the objects if you want to receive the permit for all of them. Often, there are some problems at some parts of the construction and the building permit would not be obtained for all of them, only for those that have all the conditions fulfilled, therefore they might ask for the building permits for only several objects at the time and leave the rest for later, hoping that they will solve it before the work progresses to the object in question. But yea, if they don't solve it (as e.g. obtaining the land in time) the whole site is stuck.

You can see that this is rather a responsibility of the authorities that are preparing the construction as they are not able to secure all the conditions needed for the building permit for all the objects in time.

Therefore I think that with the right management by the project manager in the paperwork phase, even with the current legislation, the actual construction could be sped up tremendously. I am not sure what kind of change would help it. The biggest problems in the preparatory phase are as I see it.

1) The regional and local spacial plan
2) Environmental conditions (noise, reservations, distances etc)
3) Land ownership

=> In my opinion all those conditions would need to be 100 % fulfilled when you are going to ask for the construction permits.

4) Construction permit phase

=> The problem here is that the construction permit process has to count with the opinions of the people and organisations that are affected by the construction, even some other organisations can become involved. So even if you have fulfilled all the conditions 1-3 the best you could, you never know before hand, if someone of the landlords affected by the construction or even someone else won´t object and appeal which will delay the issuing of the permit tremendously.

5) Tendering. In my opinion, the tendering should not happen until points 1-4 are all 100 % secured. Which hasn't been the case obviously at many sites in the CZ.


Maybe the advantage of having just one permit that would aggregate everything can be the fact that you don't see the same organisation causing problems with multiple permits, but they would need to aggregate their concerns as well. Maybe it would be a step forward to allow only for aggregated building permits, as it would also make the salami method impossible. The authorities would simply have to work much better in the paperwork phase, otherwise they would never get to the construction phase.
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Old October 14th, 2015, 06:11 PM   #3220
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In my opinion, one major problem which could be solved by better law is that of faulty expropriation. In cases where the courts find that expropriation was not done correctly, the courts should not stop construction. Construction should proceed and the courts should only determine the amount of compensation to the previous owner. In other words, first take the land and then figure out the compensation, if figuring that out will take extra time.
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