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Old August 1st, 2008, 12:42 PM   #361
ChrisZwolle
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And also, as far as I know, the truck damages the pavement more than ten thousand times more than my car, and how much does they pay per km?
I heard the same. On busy truck routes, one day of trucks makes the same damage as 1 year of car traffic. (!)


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In Czech, the revenue from labels does not cover even the maintanance. Most of funds for construction is coming from government's budget, loans and european funds.
Okay I didn't know that. In the Netherlands it's apparantly different. But the gas prices are quite high in Czech rep. and I assume most of that are also taxes. (the non-taxed gasoline is only like 50 cents). I think the gas-tax revenue also makes up for the relative cheap vignette. I pay € 51 per month on road tax for my diesel car. That's more than the Czech yearly vignette. And I have a cheap diesel car tax, because I have a business van (Renault Kangoo). A normal diesel car owner has to pay over € 80 per month on road tax.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 12:43 PM   #362
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That's not really the problem, because apparantly, the vignette system can make enough money to finance the roads. In the Netherlands, they make it more expensive everytime, and now we're paying 18 billion euro's per year, while they invest only 2 - 3 billion per year.

Charging per kilometer is basically a way to make more money off the drivers. If they abolish all gas taxes in NL, (which would make the gas price less than 50 cents), they still have enough income to finance the roads.

The problem is, non drivers do not want to pay for roads, but on the other side, drivers pretty much pay for all kind of stuff besides roads. So it's strange that it's accepted non drivers don't pay for roads, while drivers are expected to finance non-road related projects.
In Czech Rep the revenue from selling vignettes is very minor, some CZK 2.2 bln, while expenses for road network are some tens bln of CZK every year. All have to be pay from taxes.
Excise tax for gas is different issue, you pay for burning gas, pollution and downgrading of environment. It's still low when compared to total loss of society. Motorism makes our lifes worse.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 12:52 PM   #363
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Excise tax for gas is different issue, you pay for burning gas, pollution and downgrading of environment. It's still low when compared to total loss of society. Motorism makes our lifes worse.
Well, you can't really put a pricetag on the environmental damage. Opposers of freeways will say the damage is enourmous and costs billions of euro's annually. Other say it's lower. Besides that, where people live, the enviroment suffers, whether it's because of our housing, heating, eating or mobility. Try to imagine our society without motorized mobility. Instead of the supermarket, you would have to grow your own crops, distances increase, almost no long-distance trade, our welfare would have been much lower, probably comparable to African nations.

Transportation is a necessary evil. Thinking the environment will be better off by paying billions of taxes which flow to the government is wrong. In the Netherlands, they have eco-tax over eco-tax. The results on the environment are minimal, but increasingly larger in my wallet.
That doesn't mean I don't care for the environment, but most eco-taxes are just a way of the government to collect more taxes under a green-sauce.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 12:57 PM   #364
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I guess I pay the taxes by km by fuel consumer tax, right...? And also, as far as I know, the truck damages the pavement more than ten thousand times more than my car, and how much does they pay per km? Moreover, infrastructure is essential for national economy, so providing a high-quality road is not a free-service for me, but a necessary condition to keep our economy running.
You pay gas taxes because you damage our environment by burning gas, imagine all that pollution, noise, dust, intrusion of people... this tax is still very low and doesn't compansate the loss.
It's so simple: you use road so you have to pay for it, it's construction and reconstruction. It was constructed only for motorists so thay have to pay, nobody else. Trucks can pay more and they do, but the essential principle is this one: expenses for roads have to be paid only from toll, not taxes.
Infrastructure is important but not more than other factors of economy, it is just the stuff. If you use road, you use service and it is not gratis. Real price paid from toll is important, because it can turn out that using e.g. railway is much cheaper. If you pay for roads from taxes, you will never know.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:00 PM   #365
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I agree roads shouldn't be free. But there are very few countries where they actually subsidize fuel or road construction. In the end, the government has to make a good financial policy, and apparantly, that works with the current income from road taxes.

By the way "gratis" is not an English word (I know what it means, because it's the same in Dutch), you mean "free"
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:11 PM   #366
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Well, you can't really put a pricetag on the environmental damage. Opposers of freeways will say the damage is enourmous and costs billions of euro's annually. Other say it's lower. Besides that, where people live, the enviroment suffers, whether it's because of our housing, heating, eating or mobility. Try to imagine our society without motorized mobility. Instead of the supermarket, you would have to grow your own crops, distances increase, almost no long-distance trade, our welfare would have been much lower, probably comparable to African nations.
Gas taxes should be all be used as an investment into environment, it's still getting worse so there is never enough money for disposal of damages. True is that real price for damages caused by burning gas and using car are hard to determine, but it's just about compromise and agreement in the society.
Transportation is important, all I want users of infrastructure pay for it. I don't want to get back in time, just stop subsidies from taxes. Nowadays nobody knows what is more effective, railway, automobility, bike, walk?
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:14 PM   #367
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By the way "gratis" is not an English word (I know what it means, because it's the same in Dutch), you mean "free"
Free is more common but gratis is english word too, afaik.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:16 PM   #368
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Transportation is important, all I want users of infrastructure pay for it. I don't want to get back in time, just stop subsidies from taxes.
Funny, because Public transport is heavily subsidized nearly everywhere. In the Netherlands, if you buy a full 1st class ticket you're paying about 90% of the real transportation price. But most PT users use some sort of discount, hence the lower income for public transportation, and the higher the subsidies have to be in order to keep the public transport running.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:20 PM   #369
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I have another question about the tolling; is the vignette also available at gas stations that are not near borders, motorways or large cities? I still want to visit the Czech republic.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:23 PM   #370
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Funny, because Public transport is heavily subsidized nearly everywhere. In the Netherlands, if you buy a full 1st class ticket you're paying about 90% of the real transportation price. But most PT users use some sort of discount, hence the lower income for public transportation, and the higher the subsidies have to be in order to keep the public transport running.
Public transport is subsidized from taxes, again. It's wrong policy, that's true. But the problem is still the same. Without subsidies, it would be uncompetitive compered to car, because automobility is subsidized much more than public transport. I say stop all subsidies and determine real prices for all services and goods!
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:28 PM   #371
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I have another question about the tolling; is the vignette also available at gas stations that are not near borders, motorways or large cities? I still want to visit the Czech republic.
I'm not car owner but from what I know, you can buy it at all gas stations and all czech post offices.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 01:46 PM   #372
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I have another question about the tolling; is the vignette also available at gas stations that are not near borders, motorways or large cities? I still want to visit the Czech republic.
You can buy it anywhere, most of large gas stations have the vignettes on stock. Post offices are also selling them.

Kokpit: sometimes it's not that easy to calculate the real cost (no matter if construction, maintenance or environmental damage) and real revenues. Moreover, we are living in a real world where relations and feedback loops are extremely complicated. One simply cannot say that we will stop funding public transport. What would happen then...? 1) government save money 2) the price that people pay would be real 3) since the price would be higher, much less people would be able to travel. Do you realize the importance of mobility? Are you able to calculate it's benefits? I'm not. No one is. But the benefit itself is apparant. People can travel, no matter if for fun or job. By traveling, they're making a lot of money and therefore contribute the whole society!

I'm not saying that current state is a perfect one, but... the world is not perfect and never will be. The only thing we can do is to continuously improve. And that's what the government is doing. I know that I damage environment when driving. But what can we do...? Leave our cars in a garage and walk...?
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Old August 1st, 2008, 02:01 PM   #373
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One simply cannot say that we will stop funding public transport. What would happen then...?
If you stop tu sibsidy all other types of transport and will force everyone to pay as much real price for using services as possible, than nothing special will happen.
People will pay less for taxes and thus have more money to pay higher price for transportation.

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Do you realize the importance of mobility? Are you able to calculate it's benefits? I'm not. No one is. But the benefit itself is apparant. People can travel, no matter if for fun or job. By traveling, they're making a lot of money and therefore contribute the whole society!
Yes, that doesn't mean we all have to subsidize them...

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I'm not saying that current state is a perfect one, but... the world is not perfect and never will be. The only thing we can do is to continuously improve. And that's what the government is doing.
Which government?
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I know that I damage environment when driving. But what can we do...? Leave our cars in a garage and walk...?
No, paying for damages and other expenses that are needed for your driving is just enough. After all, we have other alternatives to move, not just walking or driving cars...
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Old August 1st, 2008, 02:14 PM   #374
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You are speaking just like one of those liberals or greens who thinks that everything's so easy and clear! You don't realize how complicated feedback loops in price-creating mechanism you face.. have you ever heard of externalities and market failures..? Transportation and environmental damage in CURRENT SOCIETY AND MARKET requires public funding, maintenance and subsidies as the return, although being hard to evaluate, is obvious and huge.

Everybody know that we should do what you've said: stop funding, stop subsidies... but you don't say HOW. Of course, you can say "just pay for roads, trains etc.", but who would do the business then, who would earn the money????
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Old August 1st, 2008, 03:28 PM   #375
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Everybody know that we should do what you've said: stop funding, stop subsidies... but you don't say HOW. Of course, you can say "just pay for roads, trains etc.", but who would do the business then, who would earn the money????
Sorry, I somehow don't understand. You only say nothing is easy and cutting subsidies and paying only for real consumption in our society is not possible.
I don't know why you think that our economy would collapse after cutting subsidies and creating real prices for public services. You think people would stop earning money? Hell, why? All money come from people, there is no other source. Government get money from taxes and subsidize some sectors of economy. All I want to stop this policy, cut general taxes and where is it possible, set real prices for public services.
For example, since trucks have to pay toll per kilometer, this kind of transportation become much more uncompetitive. It is because it was subsidized before then. Now there is more real price (still far from being absolutely real though) and many companies switch to rail, because it's cheaper. Before that, companies with their JIT system moved their storages onto public roads, because they were subsidized by us, taxpayers! Does it make some sense to subsidize private sector from taxes? No! As long as roads are being built and mainted from out taxes, nobody knows if it's effective investement of our money. Where are subsidies, there's no real market and real competition among other kinds of transportation.
Sure, some people and companies which are being subsidize now will be not happy since they will have to pay more. But many others will only benefit, since now they pay for service they have no utility from. All in all, with cutting all or at least most of subsidies, only taxpayer will win. Taxpayer is the only who pays all this and he wants to pay only what he needs.
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Old August 1st, 2008, 03:50 PM   #376
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You just keep saying that YOU pay, but does not realize that you also benefit from that... makes no sense to continue.

Simply, if there's no D1 built using public money, my company would choose Poland instead. Is this clear enough?
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Old August 1st, 2008, 07:15 PM   #377
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Kokpit, if all infrastructure is paid from tolls it means that small communities will never have roads, it also means that we should abandon mountains regions because road building there will be more expensive and population is smaller so tolls won't cover cost. Or you will have higher tolls to drive in mountains so people (especially poorer) will be forced to move somewhere where toll is lower (some densely populated area maybe slums, with busy highways)
Also companies just relocate to countries with lower cost of transportation. I'll be happy because a lot of investment would go to Poland instead Czech Republic if your solution is ever used.
Beside how you quantify environmental cost of burning fuel? Fuel tax is different in each country but as far as I know i liter of petrol produce the same amount of CO2 in Netherlands and in Poland.
Following your logic we should abandon all taxes. No rail subsidies, no public health service, no police. Life would be perfect.
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Old August 2nd, 2008, 07:10 PM   #378
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Well I don't have a car so I do not want to subsidize motorists from my taxes. All roads constructions should be payed from the toll. If someone doesn't use road, why should he pay for it's construction/reconstruction....

OMG!
Thats unbelievable...
have you heard about the fueltax?
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Old August 2nd, 2008, 07:20 PM   #379
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Maybe a hermit in the forest does not use a road.
Everybody else does.
even a cripple does. (he needs assistance, and this assistance goes by car...)


But if you prefer we may toll the ambulance, the police and firefigther cars.

I think it would be very unfair to extinguish the burning house of someone who does not pay the toll for the firefighter...
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Old August 2nd, 2008, 09:01 PM   #380
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oh. I see... fueltax is not for the roads but for the environmental damage...

that's ridiculous.

but let you be right.

in the name of equality lets put 100% tax not only on gasoline but every fossil energy source: on natural gaz, coal, oil...

this will increase the price of the electric energy (if it is generated by coal, oil, naturalgaz powerplants)

OK we are done. what will happen?

the instant revolution will sweep you and your goverment away...
you are a dead man as a prime minister....
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