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Old August 11th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #2501
Penn's Woods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you compare older toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, Indiana Toll Road or the turnpikes in Oklahoma, then yes, American toll roads are much cheaper than French toll roads. However if you compare it with more recently constructed toll roads in say Dallas or Florida, then tolls are more similar. The NTTA levies a toll of $ 0.16 per mile, which is closer to the rate of the toll roads in Southern Europe. Not to mention express lanes with dynamic pricing, which can go up to $ 1 per mile.
Sure, but I'm not sure a short-haul toll road in a metropolitan area used mostly by commuters (and which was probably fairly expensive to build, per mile/km, due to land costs alone) is comparable to an intercity one. But I'm not trying to start something.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:07 PM   #2502
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
You'll pay about $30.00 to drive the Pennsylvania Turnpike from end to end; 360 miles (a bit over 500 km) including about four mountain tunnels. And we're not a Communist country either. :-P (Of course, the Appalachians aren't the Alps....)
Unfortunately, my country ,and Europe, are not the same sense about displacement.
Your fuel is low, price of your vehicles too, very few tollroads, ...
What a happiness.
I know you're not a communist country.
But you like to protect and to buy your own products and to oppose resistance from foreign countries.
You know, with France and our agricultural products !
We must have your same sense of protection. But our politicians are afraid.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:12 PM   #2503
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I understand we're relatively spoiled ("gâtés", I think?) here. I'm actually hoping to be able to take a European road trip soon - see some of the places we keep talking about here - so I'm very conscious at the moment of what that would cost.

Bien à vous.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:21 PM   #2504
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Twin bore Gran Sasso tunnel isn't tolled (apart from normal motorway toll); Gotthard tunnel isn't tolled (apart from normal vignette). Italy and Switzerland are not communist, either.

Tunnels are supposed to join. A 40€ tunnel just divides: these tunnels are expensive pieces of engineering but basically they don't solve the problem they were created for.
I would prefer to pay a vignette to use all my national highways, like in CH, A,... or not to pay at all.
I pay enough tax I think for my country. But not enough for some others.
But, we are in a country where users pay for utilization. Highways and tunnels.
We had to accept it.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:29 PM   #2505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I understand we're relatively spoiled ("gâtés", I think?) here. I'm actually hoping to be able to take a European road trip soon - see some of the places we keep talking about here - so I'm very conscious at the moment of what that would cost.

Bien à vous.
Yes, gâtés. Very good, without any mistake !
So, if you want to do a trip in Europe, don't forget to save money ! A lot of money ! But it depends of which countries and which kind of roads you will take.
Regards
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Old August 12th, 2013, 10:35 AM   #2506
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does somebody have the history of toll amounts at Frejus and Mt Blanc? were they always so expensive?
I don't, but I remember that in 2009 for a car it was around 33€ (now it is 41€/55$).

(33€ is 44$, at today's exchange rate)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think the tolls are so high to harmonize it with alternate routes and to cope with the low AADT of only 4 500 vehicles per day.
Is the toll high because the traffic is low, or is the traffic low because the toll is high? Is the traffic low also because of the double border (both political and linguistic) effect?

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The Fréjus Tunnel also happens to be almost 4 times longer than the Eisenhower Tunnel.
Note that there are no road tunnels longer than 3 km in North America, with the exception of the Big Dig in Boston (which is in a city, not a mountain) and the combined rail/road single lane/single track tunnel in Alaska (with a very low traffic).
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Old August 12th, 2013, 10:51 AM   #2507
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't, but I remember that in 2009 for a car it was around 33€ (now it is 41€/55$).

(33€ is 44$, at today's exchange rate)
I don't remember exactly, but I payed something between 35€ and 38€ in 2011 at Frejus.

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Is the toll high because the traffic is low, or is the traffic low because the toll is high? Is the traffic low also because of the double border (both political and linguistic) effect?
Exactly. Just compare Frejus and Ventimiglia border AADTs, and discover the truth
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Old August 12th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #2508
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I don't know how much decision power the Italian and French governments have, but I think they should reduce at least by half the tolls for private vehicles...
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Old August 12th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #2509
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Exactly. Just compare Frejus and Ventimiglia border AADTs, and discover the truth
I don't think you can really compare those. Ventimiglia is located on a much more important transit route, basically the only east-west route that connects southern Europe. Additionally, there is a much higher population density along the coast. There isn't a lot of population within 50 kilometers of the Fréjus Tunnel, which means they have to live off long-distance traffic.

Also, the Fréjus Tunnel has to compete with the Mont Blanc Tunnel over long-distance traffic. According to Google Maps, the time difference is only 1 minute when driving from Lyon to Milano.

However I do believe the high tolls are a major factor in the low traffic volume, even to the point that these valleys near it have not developed a lot of tourist infrastructure (apart from skiing). You don't go shopping in the other country with such tolls. But perhaps that's what they want, you know how mountain people feel about non-local traffic / people.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:03 PM   #2510
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They are always expensive. First because a tunnel is of course very expensive to build.Second, to win money when users don't have any other alternative.
Except if you want to climb the Alps even in winter.
We are not in a communist country . You want ? You pay !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't, but I remember that in 2009 for a car it was around 33€ (now it is 41€/55$).

(33€ is 44$, at today's exchange rate)
For comparison's sake, for 33 € you can drive through not only Gotthard tunnel (longer than Mt Blanc or Fréjus), but the whole Switzerland from Basel to Chiasso. As many times a year as you wish
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #2511
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I don't think you can really compare those. Ventimiglia is located on a much more important transit route, basically the only east-west route that connects southern Europe. Additionally, there is a much higher population density along the coast. There isn't a lot of population within 50 kilometers of the Fréjus Tunnel, which means they have to live off long-distance traffic.
I don't agree. Basically everyone from Po Plain wanting to go to central France has to travel through Frejus or Mont Blanc. Po Plan has some 30 million inhabitants.

Quote:
Also, the Fréjus Tunnel has to compete with the Mont Blanc Tunnel over long-distance traffic. According to Google Maps, the time difference is only 1 minute when driving from Lyon to Milano.
Frejus and Mont Blanc combined don't even come close to Ventimiglia. That's only because of tolls, not because there's no demand.


Quote:
However I do believe the high tolls are a major factor in the low traffic volume, even to the point that these valleys near it have not developed a lot of tourist infrastructure (apart from skiing). You don't go shopping in the other country with such tolls. But perhaps that's what they want, you know how mountain people feel about non-local traffic / people.
That's true. But I don't think Italian Isarco Valley (Wipptal) is suffering from Brenner through traffic. Hell, A5 from Aosta to the tunnel is totally on tunnels... locals cannot be disturbed by that.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:39 PM   #2512
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I don't agree. Basically everyone from Po Plain wanting to go to central France has to travel through Frejus or Mont Blanc. Po Plan has some 30 million inhabitants.
But those trips are too long to generate a high average daily traffic. Torino - Lyon is already 300 kilometers and people don't make international trips nearly as often as domestic trips, unless it's for local cross-border shopping, which the high tolls rule out.

The Netherlands has some of the busiest border crossings in Europe and the bulk of traffic is fairly local (< 100 km), either for taxation-induced international shopping or for cross-border commuting to work. There are many Dutch living in Germany and Belgium to work in a nearby Dutch city. I don't think many Italians live in France and commute to Torino or other Italian cities.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #2513
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EU should intervene for lower tolls... as they did when Slovenia introduced only year and half-year vignette. the reason is the same - blocking free flow of people and goods within inner EU market.

think of it as if the tunnel would be only in Italy or only in France, do you think the toll would be the same?
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Old August 12th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #2514
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But those trips are too long to generate a high average daily traffic. Torino - Lyon is already 300 kilometers and people don't make international trips nearly as often as domestic trips, unless it's for local cross-border shopping, which the high tolls rule out.

The Netherlands has some of the busiest border crossings in Europe and the bulk of traffic is fairly local (< 100 km), either for taxation-induced international shopping or for cross-border commuting to work. There are many Dutch living in Germany and Belgium to work in a nearby Dutch city. I don't think many Italians live in France and commute to Torino or other Italian cities.
It's the Alps we're talking about. Nobody crosses the Alps as a daily commute.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 06:06 PM   #2515
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
....I don't think many Italians live in France and commute to Torino or other Italian cities.
With those tolls, they wouldn't!
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Old August 12th, 2013, 07:45 PM   #2516
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Sure, but I'm not sure a short-haul toll road in a metropolitan area used mostly by commuters (and which was probably fairly expensive to build, per mile/km, due to land costs alone) is comparable to an intercity one. But I'm not trying to start something.
It all boils down to different views on transportation. In America the car is sacred and the land is cheap. Thus, you get massive subsidization for cheaper-to-build roads. In Europe, land is expensive and public transportation is much more favorably viewed; you don't absolutely *need* a car. This makes motorways a luxury that you don't *need* (you will never find a tolled road that doesn't have a non-tolled alternative), but a convenience you pay for, and the state can spend its money on other things.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #2517
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It's the Alps we're talking about. Nobody crosses the Alps as a daily commute.
There are daily commuters between Domodossola I and Brig CH (Wallis) through the Simplon, and between Wallis and Bern cantons through the Lötschberg, nearly all by train (Domodossola-Brig takes 30 minutes, Brig-Bern around one hour).
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Old August 12th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #2518
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Yeah ok, nobody doesn't necessarily mean zero.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #2519
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But these are certainly more than on the Fréjus.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 12:35 AM   #2520
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Originally Posted by TrentSteele View Post
(you will never find a tolled road that doesn't have a non-tolled alternative)
Great Belt and Øresund bridges in Denmark/Sweden. Also all routes through Oslo metropolitan area from west to east or vice versa.
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