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Old January 5th, 2015, 04:38 PM   #2941
ChrisZwolle
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The Hollande government should have thought of that earlier, especially in light of the original proposal which was downscaled substantially after heavy criticism. (they wanted to tax 15,000 km of roads initially).
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Old January 5th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #2942
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What's the background on this? Just out of curiosity.
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Old January 5th, 2015, 04:57 PM   #2943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
French truck drivers protested a lot against that tax. Basically, to save their interest they made other French waste money. Not really nice...
These people would have all gone bust if this tax had been implemented. It's not that they were selfish, they were just fighting to survive.

Plus, "another" waste of money? France spends money very sensibly when it comes to roads. Too sensibly, in my opinion, as they are constantly downscaling new road projects due to cost.

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What's the background on this? Just out of curiosity.
The French government wanted to toll almost every expressway and major road for heavy vehicles. They installed all the electronic-tolling gizmos throughout the whole country, and then truck drivers started a revolution burning them all down. It all went out of control, even for the almighty French Government, so the tax was eventually dropped.
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Old January 5th, 2015, 05:18 PM   #2944
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France spends money very sensibly when it comes to roads. Too sensibly, in my opinion, as they are constantly downscaling new road projects due to cost.
France has a very adequate road network. There is almost no structural, daily congestion outside the most populous urban areas. Of course some more expressways and motorways would be nice, but France has a very extensive network already, with nearly 15,000 kilometers of autoroute & voie expresse.

Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).
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Old January 5th, 2015, 05:22 PM   #2945
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These people would have all gone bust if this tax had been implemented. It's not that they were selfish, they were just fighting to survive.
In theory transport companies could turn their increased costs on customers, couldn't they?

Or, as alternative, the French government could have reduced other taxes on trucks.
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Old January 5th, 2015, 09:11 PM   #2946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).
You know that France build most of it's network in 90's ,while Germany in those times had most of it's todays network .
So, never motorways=less roadworks.
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Old January 5th, 2015, 09:13 PM   #2947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
France has a very adequate road network. There is almost no structural, daily congestion outside the most populous urban areas. Of course some more expressways and motorways would be nice, but France has a very extensive network already, with nearly 15,000 kilometers of autoroute & voie expresse.

Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).
The road network in France is fine for long-distance traffic, but shorter trips in large urban areas can be a lot more difficult than in other countries. For example, the big metro area of Marseille and Aix-en-Provence has one of the worst expressway networks in Western Europe. The existing motorways lack capacity (they were built in the early 1970s and have not been expanded since), and there are several two-lane roads handling a daily average of more than 30,000 vehicles per day. Plus, the proposed improvements are constantly being downgraded, such as the D6-A8 connecting road in La Barque -it was first proposed as a motorway, and now it's been approved as a two-lane road with roundabouts. For 30,000 vehicles per day. The A9 corridor between Montpellier and Nîmes is another example. There's heavy congestion on weekends, so they planned to duplicate N113 all the way. But now it seems they are only going to build some at-grade bypasses, and not before 2020. There's a similar situation in Côte d'Azur between Hyères and Saint-Tropez. It's one of the most popular summer holiday destinations in France, yet there's no expressway (not even two-lane) reaching it. The result is 1960s roads handling 2015 traffic -a complete mess.

Driving in France is usually fine if you are a tourist and use long-distance, tolled autoroutes. They're flawless. But for commuters, especially in Southern France, the situation is far worse. Add the constant railway strikes and the occasional taxi driver roadblocks and you have the ultimate commuter hell.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
In theory transport companies could turn their increased costs on customers, couldn't they?

Or, as alternative, the French government could have reduced other taxes on trucks.
The aim of this tax was to get more money, so I doubt they ever considered reducing other taxes. Higher costs would have meant more expensive goods, but in the end the ones that would suffer the most were truck drivers.
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Old January 6th, 2015, 02:17 AM   #2948
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Quote:
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You know that France build most of it's network in 90's
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Old January 6th, 2015, 10:29 PM   #2949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
France has a very adequate road network. There is almost no structural, daily congestion outside the most populous urban areas. Of course some more expressways and motorways would be nice, but France has a very extensive network already, with nearly 15,000 kilometers of autoroute & voie expresse.

Although French autoroutes are mostly tolled with quite high tolls, they are generally of impeccable quality and there are far fewer traffic-disrupting road works. I drove over 2,000 kilometers of French autoroute this summer and encountered only two minor road works (no congestion). Compare this to Germany where there were roadworks every 35 kilometers on average (366 Baustellen on the Autobahn).
ChrisZwolle, I know how much you love French autoroutes. You love them certainly more than some Frenchies like me However, it would be appalling if with such expensive tolls our motorways would be in a bad shape / with constant roadworks.
Moreover, in big agglomerations the network is pretty bad. Very few upgrades have been made since the end of the 1980s in such areas like Paris's, Marseilles', Nice's ... Look in the meantime what has been done in Germany or even in your own country - the Netherlands - to prevent congestion.
Everyone has got the right to his/her own opinion. However, I prefer driving 1000km on German Autobahns than 200km on expensive, fully radarized French autoroutes.
These last years I spent in France, I tried to avoid motorways and to drive on secondary roads. Very lovely experiences
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Old January 6th, 2015, 10:58 PM   #2950
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I did note the situation is not as good in the 'most populous urban areas' Paris is much better than London though, where it takes twice as much time to get from A to B in the metro area.

But once you're outside the largest urban areas, traveling is very smooth and convenient in France. I only hope they change to all-electronic tolling at some point. That would reduce the summer congestion significantly at some stretches.

There is not a whole lot of road news coming from the Hollande government. They issued only one DUP in 2014, which means national road construction will dry up in the next couple of years.
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Old January 6th, 2015, 11:10 PM   #2951
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But once you're outside the largest urban areas, traveling is very smooth and convenient in France.
How much of that can be attributed to the relatively low population density (low compared to Germany or the Benelux, for example)?
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Old January 7th, 2015, 11:50 AM   #2952
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But once you're outside the largest urban areas, traveling is very smooth and convenient in France. I only hope they change to all-electronic tolling at some point. That would reduce the summer congestion significantly at some stretches.
That is not true -at least in Southern France. A7 and A9 (especially the latter) can be a pain on weekends way outside large urban areas. I drove between Barcelona and Marseille at least once a month last year and half an hour of stop-and-go traffic was guaranteed between Sète and Nîmes.

Central France is more sparsely populated; I reckon that driving there is fantastic (it would be better with no gendarmes). As for the North, I've never driven there, but I guess it's okay as long as Parisiens are not leaving the city for a long weekend.
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Old January 7th, 2015, 12:11 PM   #2953
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That's why A9 is being widened and realigned around Montpellier.
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Old January 7th, 2015, 12:25 PM   #2954
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The major missing link on French network is a highway between Tolouse and Lyon.
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Old January 7th, 2015, 12:27 PM   #2955
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They are slowly upgrading that route to an expressway.

I haven't heard much about the new autoroutes parallel to A47 and A7 that were planned a couple of years ago.

I've driven the A47 last year, it is quite curvy and substandard. I also took photos of it, I should dive into that.
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Old January 7th, 2015, 12:52 PM   #2956
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As for the North, I've never driven there, but I guess it's okay as long as Parisiens are not leaving the city for a long weekend.
Some 10 years ago the quality of non-tolled motorways in the north and northeast was quite bad, but they have improved since. I remember stopping along A35 north of Strasbourg and was surprised to see most of the parking area was just gravel.

Long weekends in the north are mostly problematic if Parisiens leave for the coast of Normandy. A13 is notorious for backups. Then you'll have some super commuters that drive from the northeast to Paris. A4 has a fairly large number of toll booths as it is partially an open system.
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Old January 7th, 2015, 04:28 PM   #2957
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I think that A4 in France has a lot of trafic.Do you guys know AADT for sections which are west from Paris?
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Old January 7th, 2015, 06:17 PM   #2958
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A50 Cassis - Toulon

A drive across A50 from Cassis to Toulon. They widened it to six lanes in 2012.

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Old January 8th, 2015, 07:34 PM   #2959
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Quote:
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That's why A9 is being widened and realigned around Montpellier.
I was not talking about Montpellier. There's often congestion until Nîmes. As I said before, there are plans to bypass towns and duplicate N113, but everything is so slow that I wonder if it's just that -plans to look like they're doing something. A9 also lacks capacity between Sète and Montpellier, but nothing is even planned there.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They are slowly upgrading that route to an expressway.

I haven't heard much about the new autoroutes parallel to A47 and A7 that were planned a couple of years ago.

I've driven the A47 last year, it is quite curvy and substandard. I also took photos of it, I should dive into that.
As for N88, only a part of it is an expressway, and at the current speed of road projects in France, it's probably going to stay that way until 2030. It's a bit shocking that there's no motorway between France's 3rd and 4th biggest cities; the current route (A7+A9+A61) involves a considerable detour.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 12:36 AM   #2960
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Some 10 years ago the quality of non-tolled motorways in the north and northeast was quite bad, but they have improved since. I remember stopping along A35 north of Strasbourg and was surprised to see most of the parking area was just gravel.

Long weekends in the north are mostly problematic if Parisiens leave for the coast of Normandy. A13 is notorious for backups. Then you'll have some super commuters that drive from the northeast to Paris. A4 has a fairly large number of toll booths as it is partially an open system.
Yes, the best example of bad quality in the north was A25 motorway between Lille and Dunkerque. The surface has undergone the reconstruction. Another issue on toll-free motorways - A16 and A25 - is lack of larger rest stations. And the E40 section from Calais to Belgium is an important international route. That is the fact, A13 from BP and in the section at Versailles is a nightmare for many days. The A14 is expensive option. IMO, the tolled A4 outside Meaux , Greater Paris, seems not to be so critically busy. Probably N4 and N3 overtake some traffic....
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