daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 22nd, 2008, 11:02 AM   #301
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

Those maps are really good looking for a selfmade map. I believe they made it for all missing links/projected Autoroutes.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 22nd, 2008, 03:00 PM   #302
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

The maps I posted are not self-made. They are from Michelin. The map ABRob posted is self-made, and it is inaccurate, because the Conseil d'Etat rejected the section from La Tour-de-Salvigny to Limonest where the motorway was supposed to end, because it is too close to the center of Lyon and would add extra burden on the already congested A6 in central Lyon.

So at the moment this motorway ends up nowhere in La Tour-de-Salvigny thanks to bad planning from the French government. They will have to redraw the end of the motorway, but it will take time and for several years this motorway will end abruptly in La Tour-de-Salvigny.

The only viable solution would be to build the western part of the Lyon beltway (the COL, contournement ouest de Lyon), but so far the COL is stuck in the sand due to cost, protests from wealthy inhabitants of western hills of Lyon, and so on. The A89 should ideally end at the COL. Any other solution is impractical given how congested are motorways in Lyon. Another idea would be to link the A89 with the A46 at Genay, but it's hard to see how they can do that now that they approved a 'southern' route for the A89 ending in La Tour-de-Salvigny.

Last but not least, a few days ago the new motorway between Lyon and Saint-Etienne, the A45, was approved. It will run parallel to the current A47, probably the worst motorway in France at the moment, separated from the A47 by 2 km at the max and 50 meters at the minimum. Many people were opposed to bulding a parallel motorway, but it has been approved. It will connect on the A450 in central Lyon, which is already pretty congested, that's why many people think the project is crazy.

IMO, the situation in Lyon won't improve as long as they don't build the COL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABRob View Post
So, no more RN??
There will still be some RN, but less than today.

Last edited by brisavoine; July 22nd, 2008 at 03:08 PM.
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2008, 03:04 PM   #303
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

What about the A47? Will it be demolished once the A45 is completed? I saw pics, and the A47 is heavily substandard.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2008, 03:11 PM   #304
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

It's unclear yet. Some people say it would be downgraded to a departmental road, with traffic lights added, and maximum speed of 70 km/h, so that people are forced to take the new toll motorway (the A45 will cost 9 euros from Lyon to Saint-Etienne, which is a record for such a distance).
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2008, 03:31 PM   #305
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Don't you like French roads?

image hosted on flickr
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 11:55 AM   #306
Substructure
Registered User
 
Substructure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,006
Likes (Received): 10260

Chrizwolle, there is already a thread about the A45 on the French forum, it may interest you (despite the poor translation):
http://translate.google.com/translat...F8&sl=fr&tl=en

I will sum up my opinion in a couple sentences: the A47 could have been upgraded to French/European standards at a fraction of the cost of the A45 (250 millions € vs 1.7 billion €).. With the money saved, we could also have invested in the express train line between the two cities. Whatever, it will be built anyway, so I'm moving on...

edit: Oh by the way Chrizwolle, I read that Paris's inner ringbelt sustains the heaviest traffic of Europe (2x5 sections at 1.2 million vehicles/day) and thus has a very special asphalt coating (and special painting). Any idea of what it can be?
Substructure está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:09 PM   #307
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

Those 1.2 million vehicles are obvious the total ringroad usage, and not at one point, since 2x5 can carry 250.000 - 300.000 only with day long traffic jams.

Do you have a picture of the pavement?

I also think it's better to upgrade the current A47, because an A45 ending in Lyon makes less sense than the A47 ending at the interchange near Givors.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:15 PM   #308
Minato ku
Moderator
 
Minato ku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 16,746

As I know in the 2x3 way of the Peripherique (Porte de Vanves) carry 220,000 cars, it is one of least busy part of the Peripherique with 2x2 section Porte d'Orleans, Porte d'Italie
Near Porte des Lilas it is over 270,000 cars per day.
__________________
すみません !
J’aime Paris et je veux des tours !
Minato ku no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:16 PM   #309
Substructure
Registered User
 
Substructure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,006
Likes (Received): 10260

I can't believe your reactivity Chris!

You can google "Paris périphérique" to find some pictures. Here are some candidates:

http://www.infolettre.fr/gabarit/ima.../periph546.JPG
(the backward car seems to be a joke)

http://members.cox.net/mkpl/europe/fr-paris-periph.jpg

http://cache.20minutes.fr/img/photos...949651-1-0.jpg
Substructure está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:21 PM   #310
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

It looks like normal asphalt to me. I don't think they used PAC (Porous Asphalt Concrete), because it has a much shorter durability, and you don't want to repave the busy BP every few years...
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:25 PM   #311
Minato ku
Moderator
 
Minato ku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 16,746

I don't know wich type of asphalt , they use for the Peripherique, but for the repavement or any other work, they close some part of the peripherique during the night.
__________________
すみません !
J’aime Paris et je veux des tours !
Minato ku no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:31 PM   #312
Substructure
Registered User
 
Substructure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,006
Likes (Received): 10260

Chris, the repavement occurs every Tuesday and Wednesday night between 9.30pm and 6am, so that everything is repaved every 6 weeks, lane by lane, section by section.
Substructure está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 06:27 PM   #313
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

About traffic per day, the highest traffic density in France for which we have a credible source is the A4 motorway in the eastern inner suburbs of Paris, at the level of Saint-Maurice, which had 257,000 vehicles a day in 2002 (source). So far no higher traffic density has been found in Europe with a credible source (there was a thread about this some times ago). The only credible figures I have are:
- M25 motorway around Greater London: 196,000 vehicles a day between junctions 13 and 14 in 2003 (source)
- A 100 motorway in Berlin: 191,400 vehicles a day between Dreieck Funkturm and Kurfürstendamm in 2005 (source)
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 07:42 PM   #314
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

My Spanish it not the best, but the M-30 in Madrid has 300.721 vehicles a day.

source
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 08:13 PM   #315
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

I'm not sure that this is comparable with the figures I gave. Your figure for the M-30 is the traffic per day in June 2008, a month that is entirely worked, whereas the figures I gave are for an entire year, incl. the long weeks of vacation in August, Xmas-New Year, Easter, and so on, when people desert Paris and other big cities.
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 08:17 PM   #316
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

Those figures are not representative in traffic planning. The highest normal work/weekdays are the best in transportation forecasting, in other words, take all usual commuting traffic into account.

I'm working at a traffic engineering bureau, and we don't count roads this time of the year, because traffic is not representative for a whole year. (unless they specifically want to include holiday traffic patterns).
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 08:29 PM   #317
Minato ku
Moderator
 
Minato ku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 16,746

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
About traffic per day, the highest traffic density in France for which we have a credible source is the A4 motorway in the eastern inner suburbs of Paris, at the level of Saint-Maurice, which had 257,000 vehicles a day in 2002 (source
My source was the information pannels about the Peripherique coverage, that's why I have only Porte de Vanves and Porte des Lilas figures.
As I know (I don't remember where I read or heard this) The A3 motorway near Porte de Bagnolet had about 180,000 vehicules per day.
__________________
すみません !
J’aime Paris et je veux des tours !
Minato ku no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 08:51 PM   #318
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Those figures are not representative in traffic planning.
We do with whatever sources we can find. For France, Germany and UK, the sources we have calculate traffic over the whole year, so that's what we have.
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 08:56 PM   #319
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19391

Yeah I know. Most countries (US included) use Annual Average Daily Traffic. However, workday traffic is busier than that, since the ANNUAL AVERAGE also includes weekends, which usually generate less traffic, except on roads to tourist destinations, like the French A7, Spanish A-3, Hungarian M-7 etc.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 09:17 PM   #320
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Most countries (US included) use Annual Average Daily Traffic.
Well, in the US this is not a problem, since Americans don't take vacations.

In France however... You probably missed this bit, that I posted last week in another thread. It's pretty interesting in terms of consequences for seasonal traffic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
I've found some interesting stats today while reading an INSEE publication. The official population of Metropolitan France (the European part of France) is 61.9 million (Jan. 2008). However, due to foreign visitors in France (foreign tourists and businesmen), who are at all time of the year more numerous than the number of French people travelling abroad, the actual population present in Metropolitan France is at all time of the year superior to the official figure. It reaches its maximum in the second half of July when the population present in Metropolitan France is 2.8 million superior to the official population.

In other words, next week the population present in Metropolitan France should reach 64.9 million (61.9 million + 2.8 million + 0.2 million pop. growth since Jan.). Outside of summertime, there are on average 400,000 more people in Metropolitan France than the official population.

In Paris, things are a bit different. The population is often below the official figure, because tourists do not always compensate the huge departures of Parisians on week-ends and holidays. The official population of central Paris is 2.15 million, but the actual population present reaches its minimum in mid-August when there are only 1.7 million people present in central Paris (about half of the Parisians are gone, and the rest is made up of tourists). The maximum is reached in December when there are 2.3 million people present in central Paris (almost all Parisians are present, and then there are tourists who swell the population).

In the Hauts-de-Seine department, in the inner western suburbs of Paris, where La Défense is located, the population swings are even more dramatic. The official population of Hauts-de-Seine is 1.5 million. That's the number of long-term residents in the Hauts-de-Seine. However, in mid-August the population actually present in Hauts-de-Seine drops to only 0.75 million.
PS: The figures above DO NOT include people crossing France on their way to/from Spain, Italy, and other countries. Only the people who stay overnight in France are counted.
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
france

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium