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Old November 3rd, 2017, 11:43 PM   #3721
verreme
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The current French numbering system is a disgrace. They want to funnel you into Autoroutes even if you don't want to fill the pockets of the greedy concessionaire owners. And the old nationales, which are sometimes impossible to follow due to the numbers changing at every département border, are downgraded with silly measures such as lowered speed limits outside built-up areas and gymkhana-like traffic calming through villages. It's a total shame that such a great, efficient road network (much more efficient than the German one, for example, because roads are straight and go through less villages) is totally disregarded by the government.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 12:17 AM   #3722
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Don't worry dear Catalan friend, we are about to close -again- the Franco-Spanish border (just like we did during your first civil war)... so you won't have to complain about the French roads! = Problem solved!





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Old November 4th, 2017, 12:20 AM   #3723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
It's a total shame that such a great, efficient road network (much more efficient than the German one, for example, because roads are straight and go through less villages) is totally disregarded by the government.

Say what? Quite the contrary actually, straight roads are forbidden in France
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Old November 4th, 2017, 03:44 AM   #3724
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I see no problem whatsoever in traffic calming older national routes that cut straight through urban settlements, as long as the road design is downgraded to match that of a street and not of a highway, within the urbanized perimeters.

It is really a bad idea for everyone to have cars zipping at 70km/h through city centers with houses and shops and 90-degree city block intersections and tight sidewalks.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 07:10 AM   #3725
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Quote:
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I see no problem whatsoever in traffic calming older national routes that cut straight through urban settlements, as long as the road design is downgraded to match that of a street and not of a highway, within the urbanized perimeters.

It is really a bad idea for everyone to have cars zipping at 70km/h through city centers with houses and shops and 90-degree city block intersections and tight sidewalks.
Say whaaaaaat? After seven years it's finally happened: Suburbanist is taking sense!
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Old November 4th, 2017, 07:44 AM   #3726
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Interesting discussion here
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Old November 4th, 2017, 02:32 PM   #3727
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what i dont understand is why several sections of a national road have been downgraded to RD and its not possible for instance reach paris from the spanish border following the same route number
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Old November 4th, 2017, 03:44 PM   #3728
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Same here...and I'm not Spanish.


But, well, French bureaucracy... ()


BTW, AFAIK, you can still reach Paris by following the "N20" number (from Andorra, etc), or the "N10" one (from the Basque Country)
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Old November 4th, 2017, 03:58 PM   #3729
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Only 109 km out of the original 855 kilometers is still signed N20 between Paris and Bourg-Madame. The same goes for N10, only 331 km is still signed N10 out of the original 750 kilometers between Paris and Hendaye.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 05:51 PM   #3730
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Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
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Old November 5th, 2017, 03:24 PM   #3731
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A352 Strasbourg - Molsheim

A352 is a short autoroute west of Strasbourg, from A35 at Duppigheim to Molsheim. It opened to traffic in 1988.




A352-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A352-7 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old November 5th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #3732
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Well, he has a point, the route nationale numbering plan was easy to follow and logical (for the most part).

The N-numbers are now often 3/4-digit D-numbers. N29 = D1029, etc. Luckily we still have the green signs to navigate across the secondary road network.
The French road numbering is now more logical than prior the down-grading. With the construction of the motorways many sections of the Route Nationale network simply lost their national significance. Yet, they kept their number. That made them look awkward and completely out of place. The shifting of the ownership to the départements and the consequential renumbering was the only logic step.
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Old November 5th, 2017, 10:48 PM   #3733
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Next to autoroutes isn't that bad to have detrunked, and thus renumbered due to the way French roads are numbered by who is responsible for maintaining it, but not all the downgraded routes are. The former N29 that is still E44 is rather silly.

There's also the issue that many autoroutes are tolled and so 'shunpiking' is in the national interest to some extent (eg Spain's Autopista are mostly shadowed by N roads, if not A roads created by the N road being upgraded).

Then there's the downgraded network keeping old numbers - eg the route between the A16 and Boulogne Port being the ~1km N416 and then a ~1km section of N1 sandwiched between D roads. There's also stuff like the N1xxx series of bypasses (N568 split in two by the N1568 that opened several years ago IIRC) and the N249 being the bits of the N149 corridor heading SE from Nantes that have been upgraded. Keeping kilometrage from changing is more important than navigation.

Even the Autoroutes aren't immune with the A71 become A75 randomly - as it always has. It's not the end of the tolled route, it's not where the former A72 (now A89) splits. It's not even different time periods with the road either side of the junction where the number changes opening at the same time.

I can understand the A6 becoming the A7 at Lyon, and the A10 becoming the A63 at Bordeaux (less so on the latter, though the A630/N230 (grr - so close with the number, yet so far) ring breaking it is good) but there's tons of changes in numbers that don't make sense now. The N70-N80 has it's own junction numbering scheme, but not one consistent number (OK, E607, but the French aren't Belgians/Nordic).

The French N/A numbering systems are easy to follow and logical. French N/A road numbers on the ground, however, often try hard to undermine that. It's far from the worst road numbering, but it doesn't live up to its potential.
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Old November 5th, 2017, 11:08 PM   #3734
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So then.... let me understand... a lot of national road have been degraded to departement roads renumering as D-XXYY where XX = departement, same remains, and I guess google maps will not be updated.

Am I wrong?

@parcdesprinces, I guess you got wrong forumer to deal about borders regarding topic...
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Old November 5th, 2017, 11:26 PM   #3735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
...There's also the issue that many autoroutes are tolled and so 'shunpiking' is in the national interest to some extent (eg Spain's Autopista are mostly shadowed by N roads, if not A roads created by the N road being upgraded)....

Isn’t there, or wasn’t there in the past, an actual requirement in French road signage rules that when a destination is posted via a toll road, they have to or had to give an alternate route? “DIJON par RN,” that sort of thing?
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Old November 5th, 2017, 11:29 PM   #3736
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So then.... let me understand... a lot of national road have been degraded to departement roads renumering as D-XXYY where XX = departement, same remains, and I guess google maps will not be updated.

Am I wrong?

@parcdesprinces, I guess you got wrong forumer to deal about borders regarding topic...


You’re slightly wrong: the XX doesn’t indicate the département. In a lot of cases, they’ve just converted the old national number to a three-digit number beginning with 9. The N29 might be the D929. But that doesn’t seem to be consistent in all départements.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 12:04 AM   #3737
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@parcdesprinces, I guess you got wrong forumer to deal about borders regarding topic...
I was just joking around anyway.. so nothing serious.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 12:15 AM   #3738
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Say what? Quite the contrary actually, straight roads are forbidden in France
There are many long straights on French ordinary roads (not motorways). Even in non-downgraded routes départementales. France was the first European country to systematically design and build modern roads and this legacy remains today.

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Don't worry dear Catalan friend, we are about to close -again- the Franco-Spanish border (just like we did during your first civil war)... so you won't have to complain about the French roads! = Problem solved!





Fine. There are too many French tourists in Barcelona. And I'm sick of them. Last year I crashed into a French SUV because its driver jumped on the brakes when he saw the light turning yellow (and we were both going to get through!). And last week some drugged French youth nearly ran me over with his rental while driving like... well, what he was, on a residential street.

Plus, we can't pay rent anymore because you guys need hotels and Airbnb acommodation.

So go ahead.

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Old November 6th, 2017, 07:56 PM   #3739
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You’re slightly wrong: the XX doesn’t indicate the département.
yep, there are 3-digit and 4-digit D routes and they are only unique within each departements.

Quote:
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In a lot of cases, they’ve just converted the old national number to a three-digit number beginning with 9.
Beginning with 6. Minimum in the north-east....
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Old November 6th, 2017, 08:04 PM   #3740
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It varies by department. 6, 8, 9, 10, 20 and others are used. In Cambrai, the former N43 is numbered D2643. Despite the renumbering, the former N-roads are typically still the higher standard and more important regional links in a department and across departmental borders. Many more routes nationales were renumbered than just the ones running parallel to an autoroute. Some 20,000 kilometers of routes nationales were transferred to the departments in 2006.
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