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Old November 6th, 2017, 08:42 PM   #3741
italystf
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It seems that French numbering scheme is as messy as the Italian one, with all these roads that have been handed over from the central state to subdivisions and thus renumbered often in an inconsistent manner.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old November 7th, 2017, 11:58 AM   #3742
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No, the French numbering scheme isn't very messy at all. French numbers on the ground, however, are often messy.

In Italy, the mess on the ground usually is treated by the numbering scheme as a feature rather than bad implementation.
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Old November 8th, 2017, 04:46 PM   #3743
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A40 Nantua - Bellegarde

Some photos of A40 from an overpass between Nantua and Bellegarde in the Jura Mountains.


A40 Nantua-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Nantua-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Nantua-3 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old November 8th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #3744
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why all the routes D have the same sign yellow colour ?
in spain we have diferent sign colours for primary or secondary roads : yellow for local roads , green for provincial roads , orange for regional roads...
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Old November 8th, 2017, 08:45 PM   #3745
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Well, if I'm not mistaken, Spain is the only country in Europe that uses different colours for each category of non-national roads (in fact, there probably are not so many countries that classify non-national roads into more than one category), so maybe the question should be the opposite. Is it really necessary/useful to use so many colours?
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Old November 8th, 2017, 08:54 PM   #3746
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for me it is useful to know the category of the road

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20120102171019

Last edited by VITORIA MAN; November 9th, 2017 at 12:29 PM.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 08:37 PM   #3747
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D-roads are always the same category.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 10:34 AM   #3748
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But not all the d roads are the same


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20111105120950

Last edited by VITORIA MAN; November 10th, 2017 at 10:39 AM.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 09:55 PM   #3749
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A "yellow" (local, lowest-tier) road in Spain can also be anything from a motorway to a country lane. And some provinces use other colours (purple or grey) instead of yellow. And its number can have like 50 (?) different prefixes. And the same can be said about "green", "orange" or even national roads. So we use nearly 100 prefixes and at least 7 different colours...
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Old November 10th, 2017, 10:04 PM   #3750
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The numbers of a route départementale say very little about the quality of a road. The D9xx* numbers are often ex-routes nationales so they can be of a higher standard, but as routes nationales were transferred en masse both in 1973 and 2006, it doesn't say anything about the design standards.

Especially the routes nationales that were transferred in 1973 were often of lower design standards, they typically lack a contournement (bypass) of towns whereas routes nationales that were transferred in 2006 often have several bypasses or other upgraded sections. However the route numbering doesn't show that. In fact in many departments, single-digit routes départementales are often very secondary in character. But some others may be of higher standard, up to a voie express (four-lane divided highway with grade-separation).

* D9xx: as discussed earlier, many departments numbered ex-routes nationales as a D9xx, but many other numberings are also used. This varies by department. For example N64 is now numbered D64, D164, D964 & D764.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 10:39 PM   #3751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
Well, if I'm not mistaken, Spain is the only country in Europe that uses different colours for each category of non-national roads (in fact, there probably are not so many countries that classify non-national roads into more than one category), so maybe the question should be the opposite. Is it really necessary/useful to use so many colours?
Matter of opinion.

Of course, we all know about some first regional level roads which aren't the best ones and other second or third ones which are not bad at all... but it is supposed that, providing they are refurbished, they will get one or other standards.

Therefore, blue for motorways, never mind which ones and a colour system is easier than a number to know which roads "might" be better or worst for a journey
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Old November 11th, 2017, 01:30 AM   #3752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Next to autoroutes isn't that bad to have detrunked, and thus renumbered due to the way French roads are numbered by who is responsible for maintaining it, but not all the downgraded routes are. The former N29 that is still E44 is rather silly.
French authorities don't have control over the routing of E-routes. You can hardly blame them for that.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Then there's the downgraded network keeping old numbers - eg the route between the A16 and Boulogne Port being the ~1km N416 and then a ~1km section of N1 sandwiched between D roads. There's also stuff like the N1xxx series of bypasses (N568 split in two by the N1568 that opened several years ago IIRC) and the N249 being the bits of the N149 corridor heading SE from Nantes that have been upgraded. Keeping kilometrage from changing is more important than navigation.
As far as I can find these examples I can't see anything wrong with them. I actually wonder what your problem is. All roads have unique numbers, the streets have at least unique names. So each part of the road network is identifiable.

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Even the Autoroutes aren't immune with the A71 become A75 randomly - as it always has. It's not the end of the tolled route, it's not where the former A72 (now A89) splits. It's not even different time periods with the road either side of the junction where the number changes opening at the same time.
What do you mean by become? The A 71 and the A 75 are two separate roads which join each other at Clermont-Ferrand. It has always been this way ever since these roads were built and it will most likely stay this way. There is nothing wrong with that and certainly nothing random.

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I can understand the A6 becoming the A7 at Lyon, and the A10 becoming the A63 at Bordeaux (less so on the latter, though the A630/N230 (grr - so close with the number, yet so far) ring breaking it is good) but there's tons of changes in numbers that don't make sense now. The N70-N80 has it's own junction numbering scheme, but not one consistent number (OK, E607, but the French aren't Belgians/Nordic).
Why should the N 70 and N 80 have one consistent number when they are two roads? And what exactly is the problem with this?
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Old November 11th, 2017, 12:39 PM   #3753
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
French authorities don't have control over the routing of E-routes. You can hardly blame them for that.
They could
1) not sign the E44 along the D roads, but they do, suggesting that they shouldn't have detrunked it given they think its of European importance, but not National importance!
2) truncate the E44 to Longwy to avoid using the D643/D8043/D1043/etc - all very easy, just tell the UNECE they are doing it and the change will be made. Given the French submitted a proposal to change to the agreement a few years ago, they know they could have done it.
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All roads have unique numbers
There's 3 bits of the N1: 7km between the N104 and A16, 5km between N25 and A16 to complete the Amiens ring road, 3.5km between the N416 and Boulogne port.
There's 4 bits of N7: the 3km extending the A106 through Orly Airport, the 162km voie express that extends the A77, 194km alongside the A7 that only really has the Valence bypass that's worth being N road (but you'd still have that section), and 9km heading south of Avignon.

Hardly 'unique'. You downgrade (or not in the case of the N7 alongside the A7) a road leaving several pieces. Those pieces are mostly not functionally part of the former whole anymore.

There's no reason other than laziness why the Boulogne section of N1 can't be N416 - given they were willing to renumber 100s of km of road that were detrunked, why not isolated sections of once-major routes that retained their N status? It's not like the road in Boulogne is part of the Paris-Calais-Belgium road anymore: it's clearly part of the A16-Boulogne national road, ie the N416, nowadays.
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What do you mean by become?
The number just changes.

And because not a natural place for a number change and never has been, they have big orange signs informing you of the number change as literally nothing but the number has changed! Not maintenance/concession, not construction date, not what intercity route you are on.
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The A 71 and the A 75 are two separate roads which join each other at Clermont-Ferrand.
But at a junction which was never the main exit for Clermont. Clermont traffic leaves at junction 16, but the A71 continues south to a junction where you can't access C-F from the N-S Autoroute and the autoroute east goes and joins up with the road passed two junctions ago that is the main road east out of C-F and has been since they built it!
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certainly nothing random.
The junction where they do it is very much random. Not the city, not the main route east. No, a little spur to the airport.
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Why should the N 70 and N 80 have one consistent number when they are two roads?
Two road numbers that meet end-on? The junction on the N80 to the east is '6' with them then decreasing and the junction on the N70 to the southwest is '8' with them increasing? That's one road with two road numbers. Same junction numbering, being upgraded to Voie Express as one road, same E-number. It's one road with two numbers.

I really don't know what you have against roads not changing numbers in
- random locations by mid-sized cities because they felt like it (the A480/A51 is a more blatant example than the A71/A75)
- where the main road changes what former main road it is on (eg N70/N80)
- because there's a newish bypass the N569 ends and the road becomes N1569 around the town then returns to being N569 (the old road through the town having been downgraded)
- because there's a new Voie Express upgrading the corridor and that had to be N249 rather than N149 for some strange reason.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 03:56 AM   #3754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
They could
1) not sign the E44 along the D roads, but they do, suggesting that they shouldn't have detrunked it given they think its of European importance, but not National importance!
2) truncate the E44 to Longwy to avoid using the D643/D8043/D1043/etc - all very easy, just tell the UNECE they are doing it and the change will be made. Given the French submitted a proposal to change to the agreement a few years ago, they know they could have done it.
Hang on a sec, E Roads in France are mainly around 60 years old now. Are you saying that France has not systematically rejigged E Roads off the old routes and onto motorways like the A1 and A6 which are the best part of 50 years old. ??

Or is this a recent thing where France (like other countries) no longer care about E Roads now we all have Satnavs or access to Viamichelin. ?
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Old November 13th, 2017, 01:41 PM   #3755
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Hang on a sec, E Roads in France are mainly around 60 years old now.
Err, the current network was planned in 1974, agreed in 1975, implemented in 1983 and went through major changes in 1985. France added/changed a lot in 1985 - eg there was no 3-digit routes in France before '85 (though, oddly the E611 was proposed in '74, then ditched when it came to implementation in '83 and then added without change in '85).

E Roads in France are mostly 32 years old, though never have been set in stone.
Quote:
Are you saying that France has not systematically rejigged E Roads off the old routes and onto motorways like the A1 and A6 which are the best part of 50 years old. ??
No. I'm saying that the purge of national roads included corridors without Autoroutes, but with E Roads - eg the old N43 / E44 heading east from Saint Quentin towards Longwy (the section between N51 and N58 is still N43). ie that France considered roads to not be of national interest, while keeping them of European interest.

The French are rather good at moving E roads to Autoroute/Voie Express - they actually moved the E54 onto the D438 voie express between Lure and Belfort long before they N19 it was built to replace (have they even done that yet?).

Romania is the only country that doesn't move E Roads to parallel motorways (with Hungary going as far as submitting the minor changes to the UNECE to reflect the slight change in route), with maybe a couple of minor exceptions where a route hasn't been moved.

France last proposed changes to the Agreement as recently as 2005, though that wasn't the road list. The large downgrading was that same year.

As I say, good numbering system with sometimes terrible implementation.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 07:09 PM   #3756
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N202 Col de Toutes Aures

N202 runs across the Col de Toutes Aures in the southern Alps. N202 is the main road to Nice but loses its route nationale status at a rather arbitrary location, an intersection near Saint-Benoit, where it becomes D4202, and later D6202 and M6202 in the Var department.

The pass separates the watersheds of the Var and Verdon rivers.


N202 Col de Toutes Aures-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N202 Col de Toutes Aures-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N202 Col de Toutes Aures-3 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old November 13th, 2017, 08:30 PM   #3757
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Even worse, that wasn't part of the original N202, it was N207. It actually ends at its own former route, a junction where three routes end: N202, D4202 (D6202 and M6202 down the road) and D902 (D2202 up the road). N202 used to run on the departmental routes until 1973, when most of it was downgraded and was sent to Barreme over what had been N207. Then in 2006 the rest of the original route to Nice was downgraded too, so now N202 doesn't retain any of its original route (The "Route des Grandes Alpes").

About E routes, one of the two sections of E74 in France runs along a departmental route in its entirety: D6204. This is just after entering France from Italy coming from Ventimiglia, and this was N204b before 1973 and then just plain N204 until 2006.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 06:44 PM   #3758
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N87 Grenoble

I filmed N87 through Grenoble. N87 is a voie express that forms the bypass of Grenoble from A41 to A480 / A48 / A51. All east-west through traffic uses it.

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Old November 16th, 2017, 08:27 PM   #3759
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Rouen Bypass

The Declaration of Public Utility (DUP) has been issued for the Rouen Bypass project on 14 November:

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...NT000036026548
A l'issue des travaux, le statut d'autoroute est conféré aux sections nouvelles créées :


- entre l'autoroute A 28 (commune de Quincampoix) et l'autoroute A 13 (commune d'Incarville). Cette section portera la dénomination d'autoroute A 133 ;
- entre la section susmentionnée (commune de Gouy) et la route départementale RD 18E (commune de Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray). Cette section portera la dénomination d'autoroute A 134.
If I'm reading this correctly, the entire bypass will be numbered A133, with a branch route across the Seine called A134.

The map:
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Old November 17th, 2017, 01:21 AM   #3760
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Macron went on record in the summer saying that almost 40% of Transport spend went to TGV for 2% of person movements under Mobilite 21.

But is he going to rebalance Transport expenditure...does anyone know?

Far as I see he intends to simply cut expenditure and is even threatening to balance the state budget...something most unFrench!
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