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Old September 2nd, 2008, 05:30 PM   #381
juanico
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The 35 km option will NEVER get built. The soutwestern portion of Paris it would have to go through is made of protected valleys.

Francilienne will remain an uncomplete loop forever.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 05:40 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mateusz View Post
Are there plans for extending Paris Outer Ring, N104 (A104?) in future ?
It depends what you mean by "extending". If you mean completing the loop, then yes they intend to do that. In 2006 the central State approved the extension of the motorway from Méry-sur-Oise to Orgeval (yellow section on Juanico's map above). Problem is, the regional council is opposed to it, and it is not known wheter the central State will impose its will or give in. The regional council has unfortunately been infiltrated by the Greens since 1998, and they control several key positions there. It's really not very democratic: only a minority of people voted for the Greens, but because they allied with the Socialists, and the Socialists won in 1998, then the Greens are now in power along with the Socialists, and they were given key positions (the vice president of the regional council is Green... she went to the Olympic torch relay in Paris last April with a fire extinguisher to extinguish the Olympic flame... just imagine the vice mayor of Greater London doing the same... well that's the kind of Neanderthal Greens who are ruling Greater Paris at the moment ).

So all motorway projects have been either frozen or considerably delayed since 1998, and the region is opposed to any new project. Yet the central State wants to extend the Francilienne (A 104) motorway from Méry-sur-Oise to Orgeval because the traffic situation in western Paris has become chaotic (trucks drive on streets and avenues in the western suburbs, because there is no motorway, and local inhabitants are fed up with all these trucks driving in their neighborhoods). So the motorway might end up being built, the central State saying it will open in 2015, but many people doubt it will open in time.

There were several routes proposed for the extension of the motorway. They've discussed them for years (France has gone from being the European country where public infrastructure decisions were taken the fastest in the 1960s-1970s, to being the slowest now, due to all these stupid "concertations", "discussions", "great debates" and whatnot with local citizens, local nimby associations, Green integrists, etc., all made mandatory by stupid laws passed in the 1980s). Eventually, after years of useless discussions (the general public and the nimby associations could never agree on a route), the central State finally chose the green route. So if this motorway ends up being built, it will be the green route.



For the section from Orgeval to Saint-Jean-de-Beauregard (35 km white section on Juanico's map above), which is the last remaining section to complete the Francilienne (A104) loop, nothing is planned so far. It was already so difficult to reach a decision for the Méry-sur-Oise - Orgeval section, that the central State has just decided that for the moment, between Orgeval and Saint-Jean-de-Beauregard, motorists would just use (fasten your seatbelt, open viamichelin.com, and try to follow) the A13 >> A12 >> N 12 >> A86 >> N118, and that whole section of various motorways would be called the "A104". Of course it will make traffic on these already jammed motorways completely chaotic, but that's the short-termism of public infrastructure in Greater Paris that we've been experiencing since the 1980s unfortunately. And with the Greens in power, it's even worse.
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I found the N104 a sucky road. I drove it for the first time 2 weeks ago, and it has only 2x2 lanes and you have to turn off all the time in order to continue on the N104 (TOTSO's).
That's because the Francilienne (A104) was started after the 1970s. With the election of Giscard d'Estaing in 1974, they froze all the big motorway projects in Greater Paris, and after that all new motorways have been very slow and very complicated to come. That's why the Périphérique is a perfect loop, whereas the A86 and the Francilienne are completely botched, with bits here and there, often using other motorways and pretending to be the Francilienne. In the end it increases pollution, because a traffic that jams is a traffic that pollutes more, but I guess it pays more in electoral terms to be "anti car" these days.

Anyway, concerning the 2x2 lanes, they are enlarging the Francilienne in the east of Paris. They are bringing it to 2x3 lanes between the A4 and the RN 4, and between exit 28 and exit 32, but it's extremely slow. They say it will take 10 years to enlarge the 7.5 km of Francilienne between the A4 and the RN 4. I think they can enter the Guinness Book of Records for slowest motorway enlargement.

And best of all, in July last year, the Green deputy mayor of Emerainville managed to have the local courts stop all work on the enlargement due to an obscure legal point (apparently the conduits for rain water along the enlarged motorway were not perfectly respecting the law). As a result, construction is delayed one and a half year, and scores of people are put out of work. Brillitant! And the current 2x2-lane Francilienne motorway is choked with traffic (100,000 vehicles a day), creating lots of pollution for Emerainville. Brilliant again! The Greens, they should be banned by law...

The Green deputy mayor of Emerainville proudly posing next to the Francilienne whose enlargement he managed to stop in courts:


Anyway, eventually it will be 2x3 lanes, and someday they may also remove the sections that are using other motorways (like around Evry where the Francilienne is in fact the A6), there are talks about it, so if you live long enough you may some day see the Francilienne as a full loop, uninterrupted, fully 2x3 lanes, and not using other motorways. I hope you're still young.

Ok, let's finish on a positive note. Further south near Evry, there is no Green deputy mayor to block things, and the enlargement (2x3 lanes) was completed last month. You may have seen work going on when you drove there, no?

Before August 2008, and after August 2008 on the Francilienne near Evry:


And in the west, last April the Conseil d'Etat (the supreme administrative court in France) rejected an appeal by local nimby associations to cancel the extension of the Francilienne between Méry-sur-Oise and Orgeval. So it might end up being built after all.

Last edited by brisavoine; September 2nd, 2008 at 05:49 PM.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 06:02 PM   #383
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To add to Brisavoine's summary, its kinda worrying to see that the ecolo-extremist deputy mayor of a 7,000 inh. municipality can achieve to have the current works stopped and postponed for incongruous motives.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 08:13 PM   #384
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Autoroute(s) in Paris suburbs are most of the time underground, right?
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Old September 4th, 2008, 08:34 PM   #385
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No, only a few tunnels are present. The A86 along the western side of Paris is being build in a tunnel though.
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Old September 21st, 2008, 07:36 PM   #386
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O.K.
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Old September 26th, 2008, 07:22 PM   #387
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Some pics taken last August:

A10

Tours - Bordeaux





Tours
















Next to Niort



A630 (Bordeaux)






A63

Bordeaux-Bayonne













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Old October 18th, 2008, 05:26 AM   #388
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7,602 kilometers to Paris. Now that's a milestone!

It's on the D11 road in French Guiana.

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Old October 18th, 2008, 05:56 AM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpc08 View Post
Some pics taken last August:

A10

Tours - Bordeaux



Tours
Was in France during the summer and we had to drive from the Loire region through Tours on the way to our bed and breakfast near Nantes. The highways are fantastic, but the one thing we had difficulty with was constantly trying to read and make sense of the signs. We did ok for the most part, and got better later in the trip. Had a nice tour de Tours , not intending to. Reminded me of a miniature Paris.
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Old October 19th, 2008, 10:41 PM   #390
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massive pile-up on the A4 Autoroute. 1 killed, 39 injured.

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Old October 19th, 2008, 10:49 PM   #391
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We've had a few of these fog accidents in NL too. It can get really bad and some drivers only understand that they have to adjust their speed to the weather condintions after such a heavy accident has occured
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Old October 20th, 2008, 11:12 AM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
massive pile-up on the A4 Autoroute. 1 killed, 39 injured.


and who takes the responsibility?

only the first driver who caused the first crash or everybody except the first car in the row?
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Old October 20th, 2008, 12:09 PM   #393
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A very narrow expressway in the Greater Paris. I took it yesterday: N118 with la Défense in the background.

image hosted on flickr
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Old October 20th, 2008, 12:49 PM   #394
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Wonderful pic.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 07:56 PM   #395
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Paris is gorgeous. Even the modern parts (La Defense) which would be considered ugly and uninteresting in any other city, are beautiful.
@H123Laci: I don't think that only one is guilty, everyone else that was driving too fast considering the circumstances and thus was too late with breaking, can be considered guilty IMO
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Old October 20th, 2008, 08:00 PM   #396
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Quote:
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@H123Laci: I don't think that only one is guilty, everyone else that was driving too fast considering the circumstances and thus was too late with breaking, can be considered guilty IMO
The person "behind" is always guilty.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 08:13 PM   #397
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So would only the last one be punished? Or just everyone except the first car? In the Netherlands the person "behind" is always guilty as well.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 08:29 PM   #398
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Yeah, I once had an accident on the A10 near Saintes (just north of Bordeaux) and I was guilty because I was the guy from behind. I couldn't reasonably avoid the accident though.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 08:35 PM   #399
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@ Timon Well, it's very complicated, for instance if a car 'in the middle' was pushed by a car behind and thus bumped into a car in front, then the driver is not guilty.

But when a car in front brakes without any purpouse or because a squirrel is crossing the road, he is the one to be blamed for the pile-up.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 09:16 PM   #400
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Thanks for your answer. You know, I don't know very much about this, since I don't have my drivers license. Of course I've heard stuff like you said on tv programmes, and it's indeed much more complicated.
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