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Old August 13th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #1101
brisavoine
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I've read somewhere Toulouse is the most American city of Europe due to suburban sprawl and massive shopping malls.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=900248
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Old August 14th, 2010, 12:15 AM   #1102
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I always wondering what happens with my tolls in France. Is it just financing some CEO's 7-digit paycheck?
Pretty much, especially since Sarkozy shamefully sold the motorways to these concessionnaire companies for a cheap price (i.e. the companies will now own these motorways for ever, instead of the 30 or 50 years concession that was initially agreed after which time the motorways were supposed to be handed back to the French state and the tolls were supposed to disappear).
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having toll roads should make the French government also able to fund much more non-toll projects as they don't have the financial burden of building and maintaining most of the non-urban Autoroute network.
The motorways that remain to be built would have little traffic, so they would not be profitable. The deal between the French state and the private concessionaires was you build those unprofitable motorways and in exchange we extend your concession on the profitable ones, so the profitable motorways pay for the unprofitable ones. It was called "adossement". It worked fine like that for many years, but then suddenly a few years ago Brussels said no, you can't have deals like that, adossement is against European competition, bla bla bla, so the system had to be abandonned, and the unprofitable motorways will probably never be built (like Toulouse-Mende-Lyon... we'll be 100 y/o before they build it). Thank you European Commission!! Some days I really wish the EU didn't exist...
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Old August 14th, 2010, 12:30 AM   #1103
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Does anyone have updated on the A65 between Langon and Pau? My Michelin atlas says "Open 11/2010".
It should open in the summer of 2011.

This motorways was totally unnecessary, it will have almost no traffic. The Toulouse-Lyon motorway would have made much more sense, but a local political baron from Pau, François Bayrou, candidate in the 2007 presidential elections, insisted so much on that motorway, along with the president of the Aquitaine regional council, that eventually the French government gave in and accepted to allow this motorway to proceed. On the other hand, politicians in Toulouse and Lyon have never really harrassed the French government (the Socialist authorities in Toulouse, both at the city and regional level, are anti-car, pro-train, as if train was going to solve all our problems), so the Toulouse-Lyon motorway still remains something of a dream for our great-grand-children. Meanwhile in Spain they waste EU funds to build stupid unnecessary motorways that go from nowhere to nowhere (I'm thinking about the provinces of Murcia and Alicante in particular, although there are other examples on the Castillan meseta), but the 2nd and 5th largest French metropolitan areas are still not linked by motorway. What a wonderful world we live in.
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Old August 14th, 2010, 01:25 AM   #1104
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It should open in the summer of 2011.

This motorways was totally unnecessary, it will have almost no traffic. The Toulouse-Lyon motorway would have made much more sense, but a local political baron from Pau, François Bayrou, candidate in the 2007 presidential elections, insisted so much on that motorway, along with the president of the Aquitaine regional council, that eventually the French government gave in and accepted to allow this motorway to proceed. On the other hand, politicians in Toulouse and Lyon have never really harrassed the French government (the Socialist authorities in Toulouse, both at the city and regional level, are anti-car, pro-train, as if train was going to solve all our problems), so the Toulouse-Lyon motorway still remains something of a dream for our great-grand-children. Meanwhile in Spain they waste EU funds to build stupid unnecessary motorways that go from nowhere to nowhere (I'm thinking about the provinces of Murcia and Alicante in particular, although there are other examples on the Castillan meseta), but the 2nd and 5th largest French metropolitan areas are still not linked by motorway. What a wonderful world we live in.
well Toulouse is still waiting for its LGV, maybe that's why they are pro-train? and also, it's quite far away from lyon and paris.

now google maps puts you via Nimes Toulouse-Lyon (560km), more direct connection would be 100 km shorter. is that much?
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Old August 14th, 2010, 01:45 AM   #1105
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well Toulouse is still waiting for its LGV, maybe that's why they are pro-train?
No, they are pro-train for ideological reasons. It has been like that since the second half of the 1990s. The population of the Toulouse metropolitan area is growing by almost 2% a year, which is enormous, the fastest growth of any European metropolitan area, on par with the high growing US metro areas, and yet they haven't built any motorway or other major road in the metropolitan area since the 1990s, and nothing is currently planned. The big Toulouse bypass project has been abandonned. The Arc-en-Ciel ring road (D980) will never be completed. The transport situation in Greater Toulouse is going to become nightmarish pretty quickly. It's already quite bad (totally congested Périphérique during rush hours).
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now google maps puts you via Nimes Toulouse-Lyon (560km), more direct connection would be 100 km shorter. is that much?
The A9 and A7 are saturated, they can barely cope with the traffic, so yes it would make a big difference.
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Old August 15th, 2010, 12:50 AM   #1106
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and which are these ideological reasons? because I don't see why socialists don't want any roads (well they are normally stopping the development, but anyway...?)
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Old August 15th, 2010, 01:57 AM   #1107
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i'ts a pitty that Toulouse-Lyon is not planed to be finished soon but things are moving slowly
all the sections between Albi and Rodez are now planed in the actual PDMI (road modernisation plan) so we can hope a modern link to Rodez for 2020, even if the Albi bypass problem isn't solved
farther east works on Le Puy bypass have started, it must be opened for 2014
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Old August 15th, 2010, 02:01 AM   #1108
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and which are these ideological reasons?
a- they are allied with the Greens who are anti-car
b- there's a strong Left-wing pro-train lobby, linked to the SNCF which is a Left-wing thing controlled by Left-wing unions
c- the Midi-Pyrénées authorities are close to Gayssot, the Communist minister in charge of transports when Jospin was prime-minister in the late 1990s (only in France you find a Communist in charge of transports!). Gayssot supported the SNCF a lot, and blocked all sorts of motorway projects, while pushing for stupid train projects such as keeping some useless train lines in the Massif Central that have few customers if any.

The drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology. So some politicians fight for the survival of little used but costly train lines in the Massif Central, and everybody regard them as heros for having fought against big bad capitalist forces for the survival of those train lines (David vs. Goliath, it's always very popular in France to play the little David). And at the same time some new roads that are really needed are not built, for example in the suburbs of Toulouse.

Between 1999 and 2007, the population of the Toulouse metropolitan area increased from 964,914 to 1,118,472 people, yet no motorway or major road was built in the metro area since 1999. The population in the metro area is soon going to reach 1.5 million, yet nothing is planned in terms of new road infrastructure. The result is traffic in the 1990s in the Toulouse metro area was alright, then in the 2000s it became difficult, with often some traffic jams, and in the 2010s it should become as bad as Paris, with big traffic jams all the time, and experts say if no new infrastructure is built, by 2020 there will be permanent gridlock. We're heading for the wall and local politicians seem happy about it, living with the delusion that the 2 tramway lines and the arrival of the TGV will solve everything.
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Old August 15th, 2010, 01:11 PM   #1109
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You know, sometimes I'm under the impression politicians think all voters are Greenpeace activists or something...

Sure people want a sustainable future, but that does not mean creating a gridlock to push people into collective forms of transportation.

These people think people are eager to dump their cars and accept traveling by train or something. Politicians often lack reality and live in their own little world.
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Old August 15th, 2010, 05:09 PM   #1110
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Politicians often lack reality and live in their own little world.
Of course, they have official air-conditioned cars with chauffeurs and private parking space. They don't know what's the life of normal people. They never have to take overcrowded and ultra-hot métros or buses. The most ridiculous thing I saw was last month, I was reading an article about the new subway in Toulouse, and believe it or not, despite its southern location and very hot summers (average maximum temperature from June to September is in the upper 20s, with very often days above 30), the new subway is not air conditioned, the trains are not air conditioned, so it can be quite uncomfortable inside during the summer. They interviewed the guy in charge of the subway and asked him why they didn't install air-conditioning in the trains, he replied: "Oh, but neither Paris, nor Lille, nor Lyon have air-conditioning in their subways."
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Old August 15th, 2010, 05:37 PM   #1111
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you mean the subway trains are not air-conditioned?
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Old August 15th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #1112
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No, they are not. With the lame excuse that they are not air-conditioned either in the much more temperate cities of Paris, Lille, and Lyon, whose subways are way older than that of Toulouse.
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Old August 15th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #1113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
a- they are allied with the Greens who are anti-car
b- there's a strong Left-wing pro-train lobby, linked to the SNCF which is a Left-wing thing controlled by Left-wing unions
c- the Midi-Pyrénées authorities are close to Gayssot, the Communist minister in charge of transports when Jospin was prime-minister in the late 1990s (only in France you find a Communist in charge of transports!). Gayssot supported the SNCF a lot, and blocked all sorts of motorway projects, while pushing for stupid train projects such as keeping some useless train lines in the Massif Central that have few customers if any.

The drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology. So some politicians fight for the survival of little used but costly train lines in the Massif Central, and everybody regard them as heros for having fought against big bad capitalist forces for the survival of those train lines (David vs. Goliath, it's always very popular in France to play the little David). And at the same time some new roads that are really needed are not built, for example in the suburbs of Toulouse.

Between 1999 and 2007, the population of the Toulouse metropolitan area increased from 964,914 to 1,118,472 people, yet no motorway or major road was built in the metro area sinThe drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology.ce 1999. The population in the metro area is soon going to reach 1.5 million, yet nothing is planned in terms of new road infrastructure. The result is traffic in the 1990s in the Toulouse metro area was alright, then in the 2000s it became difficult, with often some traffic jams, and in the 2010s it should become as bad as Paris, with big traffic jams all the time, and experts say if no new infrastructure is built, by 2020 there will be permanent gridlock. We're heading for the wall and local politicians seem happy about it, living with the delusion that the 2 tramway lines and the arrival of the TGV will solve everything.
that's too bad.

Quote:
The drama in this country is there is never any cost-benefit analysis. Everything is always driven by ideology.
well, I'm sure that's not only the case in France.

but it seems that railways are always more to the left. don't know why, but for example, slovenian railways are almost run by a syndicat!
and if I count strikes in Ratp and Sncf in Paris in last few years, it makes me think that it's the same situation here!

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you mean the subway trains are not air-conditioned?
welcome to Paris! that's why I don't use subway anymore. but not only trains; buses, tramways, administration buildings... that's why it's great to sit on TGV...
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Old August 15th, 2010, 06:56 PM   #1114
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that's why I don't use subway anymore.
Then what do you use?
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Old August 15th, 2010, 07:17 PM   #1115
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car. once a week... I don't need to move every day as I live where I study. well if I'am honest, for short distances I take metro but 4 stations max.
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Old August 15th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #1116
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The most dangerous motorway in France.

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Old August 15th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #1117
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why?
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Old August 15th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #1118
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Probably:
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Old August 15th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #1119
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The most dangerous motorway in France.

Where is it? Côte d'Azur?

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Btw, great signature.
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Old August 15th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #1120
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Where is it? Côte d'Azur?

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Btw, great signature.
no, i guess it is some overseas teritory of France
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