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Old October 16th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #1261
ChrisZwolle
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Originally Posted by Kevin_01 View Post
You saw the famous chicken of Bresse ?
Yes, I saw signs of it, don't know if it was on A39 or A40.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #1262
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The eastern side of Paris has better infrastructure than the western side anyway. Lots of gaps in western Paris.
Not now that they are going to open the remaining section of the A86 tunnel.

Besides, you guys here always think in terms of autoroutes/motorways, but you don't realize that in Greater Paris there are not only autoroutes, there are also voies express (expressways) and 2x2 roads everywhere that essentially function as motorways without the name. For example the N13 between Saint-Germain-en-Laye and Rueil-Malmaison is almost like a motorway without the name.
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I've read they want to construct A104 between Cergy and Orgeval?
Yes, it's ongoing. I think we already talked about it here. It's the green line on the map below that was officially adopted (even though some local mayors still oppose it). I don't know if the project is going to be delayed due to the financial crisis and budget deficits.

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Old October 16th, 2010, 08:54 PM   #1263
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The green itinerary that was officially adopted in 2006 will cost 2.5 billion euros (3.5 billion dollars). Some local mayors still oppose it and would prefer the ligh blue itinerary, with a tunnel below the Forest of Saint-Germain, because less people live around it. The light blue itinerary would connect with the A14, whereas the green itinerary connects with the A13.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:07 PM   #1264
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Latest news: on September 7, 2010, the Socialist mayor of Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, who until then opposed the green itinerary cutting across his municipality, now agrees with it after he received assurances from the Elysées Palace that the motorway would be burried in a tunnel below his municipality. The tunnel will be 3 km long and will cross the Seine below the river bed (i.e. no bridge). Because of this tunnel, the costs for the green itinerary were raised from 2.2 billion to 2.5 billion euros.

The local Greens have voiced their opposition to what they call a "pharaonic" project, and they denounce the higher costs (2.5 billion now). They say that this huge amount of money would be better invested in rail transport.

Opponents to the project have blocked some roads on October 2, 2010 to protest against it. Etc.

Don't you love France?
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #1265
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You guys have too many municipalities, thus too many mayors who only look at their own little municipality instead of public tax interests.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:12 PM   #1266
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
That's not true. The A14/N13 connects the Périphérique with the A86. In any case, when you're on the Pérhiphérique you don't really need a connection with the A86, and vice versa, given that these two freeways run parallel to each other.
N13 it's motorway like, but there are traffic lights... it's always better if you have a motorway separated from other roads...

ok, N13/A14 functions well as a motorway replacements, but you can't say that for A1 -> A15 for example, where you have to leave the A1 and go back to reach A86 and A15/A16 let's say.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #1267
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I noticed there's already tunnel on N13. how will they build another one for future motorway?
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:17 PM   #1268
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They say that this huge amount of money would be better invested in rail transport.
They always say that by default but what do they want? A subway station under their house? Three parallel RER lines? These lines like "more rail" are so thin and empty. Technically profitable public transport lines already exist. Sure, a few improvements here and there can do no harm, but there's no use in senselessly dumping money in PT for the sake of "more public transport".
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #1269
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I noticed there's already tunnel on N13. how will they build another one for future motorway?
There is also an underground interchange between BP and N13.

Here's a picture of that tunnel you referred to.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:20 PM   #1270
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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
N13 it's motorway like, but there are traffic lights... it's always better if you have a motorway separated from other roads...
I took the N13 several times. Honestly, traffic there moves more smoothly than on the Périphérique. The lights are red for a very short period of time only, and they are in synch.
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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
ok, N13/A14 functions well as a motorway replacements, but you can't say that for A1 -> A15 for example, where you have to leave the A1 and go back to reach A86 and A15/A16 let's say.
A1 southbound >> A86 westbound >> A15 northbound is easy. It's actually the itinerary my cousin used when returning from work.

A1 northbound >> A86 westbound >> A15 northbound is more complicated, but why would you need to do that??

In any case for me the worse by far is the lack of connection between A6 southbound and A86 westbound. Who is the brilliant engineer who planned no interchange there?
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:26 PM   #1271
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A1 northbound >> A86 westbound >> A15 northbound is more complicated, but why would you need to do that??
I'd think that is a rather important missing link, since it connects central Paris with all suburbs along A15. Half of urban Val-d'Oise relies on this connection to Paris, because, as we discussed, there is no A15 crossing the Seine towards the Boulevard Périphérique. N315 ends less than 2 km short of BP.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:31 PM   #1272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
ok, N13/A14 functions well as a motorway replacements, but you can't say that for A1 -> A15 for example, where you have to leave the A1 and go back to reach A86 and A15/A16 let's say.
That's how you get from the A1 southbound to the A86 westbound.

[img]http://i54.************/xlh407.jpg[/img]

And then from the A86 westbound to the A15 northbound.

[img]http://i56.************/28wndj5.jpg[/img]
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Old October 16th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #1273
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I'd think that is a rather important missing link, since it connects central Paris with all suburbs along A15. Half of urban Val-d'Oise relies on this connection to Paris, because, as we discussed, there is no A15 crossing the Seine towards the Boulevard Périphérique. N315 ends less than 2 km short of BP.
The problem is A15 reaching the Périphérique. That's what they should do. You don't take the A1 northbound to reach the A15. That would be like someone from Rotterdam driving to Amsterdam in order to get to Utrecht. Besides, the A1 is already congested enough, so that would be a very bad idea to bring the traffic of the A15 on the A1.

What most people do is they take N13/A14 westbound >> A86 eastbound >> A15 northbound. Many people also simply leave the Périphérique and cross Clichy to reach the entrance of the N315/A15 in Asnières.

[img]http://i53.************/eu3oxy.jpg[/img]
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Old October 16th, 2010, 10:04 PM   #1274
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I noticed there's already tunnel on N13. how will they build another one for future motorway?
It is Nicolas Sarkozy, mayor of Neuilly, who built the first tunnel. Now that he's president, he wants to complete the tunnel all the way to the Périphérique. The Socialists oppose it, they say it's "pharaonic" (1 billion euros), and they say it's only for the "rich" people of Neuilly.

If Sarkozy loses the presidential elections in 2012, the tunnel will probably never be dug, i.e. the A14 will not reach the Périphérique. If he wins, it will be dug, and the A14 will connect with the Périphérique underground. The tunnel is very complicated, there are several projects. Metropolitan could tell you more about it, he works at the town hall of Neuilly and follows the issue closely, but he was unfairly banned for life from SSC by BrunoB a few months ago, and at SSC there is no way to challenge the decisions of a mod, even if the mod is abusing his powers.

Metropolitan has opened a thread about the N13/A14 tunnel under Neuilly at www.paris-skyscrapers.fr if you are interested in the issue. It's a fascinating issue actually. Not only they would bore a 6-lane motorway tunnel + RER E two-track tunnel side by side, or one above the other, or a combination of the two, but they would also completely transform Porte Maillot overground, to ensure urban continuity between the City of Paris and Neuilly (no more vast windswept no-man's-land at the level of the Porte Maillot Congress Hall).
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Old October 16th, 2010, 10:38 PM   #1275
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Today:


One proposal for the tunnel (RER E is not visible here, only RER A, Métro line 1, and future A14 tunnel are visible):


Another view (again, the RER E is not shown):
[img]http://i56.************/2s0y3y9.png[/img]

Tomorrow:


[img]http://i54.************/b6vs6d.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i56.************/2nbcad3.jpg[/img]

Urban continuity at the Porte Maillot :


For comparison, this is the Porte Maillot today. A huge empty space that is a physical barrier in the Paris urban fabric. A bit like Potsdamer Platz in Berlin after they tore down the Berlin Wall in 1989.


The official website of the project: http://www.axemajeur.org/

An association of opponents to the project has already been set up:
http://www.neuillyperif.com/

Last edited by brisavoine; October 16th, 2010 at 10:57 PM.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #1276
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I think it's a great solution. It's good for traffic flow, and good for residents.

The potential of urban tunnels under intersections or a series of intersections is often underestimated in my opinion. Traffic flow can be improved significantly, even with less lanes.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 12:45 PM   #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is also an underground interchange between BP and N13.

Here's a picture of that tunnel you referred to.
N13 is the road which passes La Defense underground?


@Brisavoine: The proposal of the tunnel A14 would be great for Paris if ever choose to construct that...
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Old October 17th, 2010, 01:21 PM   #1278
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thanks brisavoine for that explanation and photos. that project is really great.

hehe, that web site of association against the tunnel is funny.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 02:13 PM   #1279
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N13 is the road which passes La Defense underground?
Yes, but that isn't this tunnel, this tunnel runs under some intersections in Neuilly-sur-Seine, when it becomes above ground to cross the Seine River, after which the tunnel under La Défense follows.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 02:16 PM   #1280
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
An association of opponents to the project has already been set up:
http://www.neuillyperif.com/
Their 10 alternative "measures" are funny. They clearly don't answer the same needs as the tunnel. Do they know some people care about this issue beyond the tiny Neuilly municipality ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by neuillyperif
Cette quête nous a fait apparaître qu'elle aboutissait à enfermer sur deux kilomètres les usagers "forcés" du tunnel, automobilistes et motards qu'on prend pour des taupes !
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