!!!!!!My trip to Haiti, May 2007 (WARNING: this is not a pleasant thread)!!!!!!

[Bulevardi]

Originally Posted by hornnieguy

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

A-men to that !

[twingo1]

This will be my last post, as I can see that the despite everything I have mentioned there are still some that can't see the pictures in this forum that speak for themselves.

First, Vanman I don't see the link of MTV. The point I was trying to make was one of, a leader inevitably better off than his contemporaries. Whether this is politicians or rap stars. (Just look at the photos in this image) The rap point only seeks to glorify this and encourage future generational despair.

Vanman, I agree with you in regards to not all races are perfect. Whites have more serial killers and there are different types of crime depending on one's situation. My point was that while it may be one mobster or one serial killer the numbers per capita of population among that single race is different.

As for you quote

Ask yourself this question: Is it ethically and morally correct for wealthy countries, who's empires were built on the backs of slavery to deny financial aid and debt relief to the very nations in which they enslaved or helped impoverish?

This has got to be the biggest garbage I have ever read! The amount of money wealthy countries have and continue to spend easily exceeds any amount benefited. The resulting problems from slavery are a testament to this.

To answer DanteXavier, I am familiar with these stats. I am very familiar with the Caribbean countries. These are wikipedia figures and while they are based on a tourism and service industry economy none have managed to make the leap from 1975 like countries in Asia!
The stats for South Africa include the majority black population so of course it would be at similar levels to Jamaica.

Last but not least I am extremely familiar with Logan's study. And while I take his research seriously, the link still baffles me as to how come they can not influence their own societies to be a better one?

I was mistaken about the US African population, do me a favour compare the 13-14% with the black prison population won't you. I'll even give you a non wikipedia link


The facts are black prison populations are many many times higher than their representation to population. Again we blame wealthy nations, foreign debt, war in Iraq etc etc for my ills. What I have constantly said is "it is time to take responsibility for one's own actions. Haiti and others must start looking inward rather than blaming everyone.

I am aware of the HDI figures I have seen them many times before. These horrid nations who you don't think are so bad are reviewed over and over in the photos in this forum.

I am not

LOL...right. You white nationalist/racialist types all sound the same.

I am merely tired of the poor me syndrome synonymous with black societies.
I am tired of the belief that the only reason the west is successful is because it was built on the backs of poor souls and the west would be nowhere with out slavery or pillage! Timbuktu, Mali and Ghana kingdoms SOLD their OWN people to the Europeans. Just like many are sold out today.
I am tired of people who have all the opportunity in countries like the US or Australia or France not bothering to get their hands dirty and work. Like the Italians, Jews, Indians and Asians who have all had very tough histories but risen to the top. Where are the black Jerry Yang's or Sergey Brin's? These guys have barely been in the US yet look at the IT contribution. Where are the blacks in nobel prizes (excluding peace), finance, economics, medicine, entrepreneurship, and dozens of other fields. Yes there may be an individual here or there but the % compared to their population is small.

As mentioned I don't want to upset people, so this will be my last post on this topic. I just want to bring people's attention that it is YOUR, not anyone else not any nation to solve your problems! The US can't solve New Orleans mess, Haiti and the rest of the black world has little hope if it wants a bail out! The easiest way to fix your problems is to fix them yourselves!

[twingo1]

A government link about prison populations

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

[Spaulding97]

Why should America do anything about it? That's how we got into this mess in Iraq. Plus, I thought every country hated America for meddling in other countries business? Don't get me wrong, it looks bad over there and I feel bad, but France should do it. We have enough problems over here as it is.

[PresidentBjork]

Originally Posted by twingo1

BTW in response to Zimbabwe, the wealth came from the white farmers not the government's steps in the 80's it was the government's steps in the 2000's (by taking away the white farms) that has killed the country.

Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration). With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.

In response to your first point, this is not necessarily so, most investment during that time went into infrastructure and natural resource mining. It is obvious the decision to expel white farmers was a populist move upon Mugabe's part to cement his position.

Secondly, please read more carefully, I did not compare contemporary African societies with medieval Europe. It was a merely a response to someones vague statement about development takings 30-50 years. Anyway, the influence of an already idustrialised powers does not necessarily help a developing country. When an advanced civilization has met one less advanced, history demonstrates how it is almost inevitable that the former will exploit and damage the latter. Rome in relation to Celtic Europe, European settlers in North America.

It is understandable that constantly blaming past evils of slavery may be seen as an excuse. To be honest, it can annoy me sometimes too if someone denies a proper talk over current African affairs, if I do not grovel to the full extent 'white guilt' should allow me to, but try to be empathetic. Imagine if your people had a history of racial slavery, and continuing exploitation, it is an incredible bane to carry.
In addition, in places like South America, crime is the white man's fear, ironic since it was the policies of the white government that created a generation lost young blacks that had no where to go. Try to imagine yourself absolutely barred from all chances of real success, and how frustrating that would be.
Yes, apartheid ended 13 years ago, but its effects will last for decades if not more.

Equally, economic prejudice, such as in America can effect minorities' chances.
When eventually, laws were passed to end injustice and institutionalized racism, African Americans, living in cities that they had migrated to in search of jobs, get hit with the full policies of neo-liberalism in which all of those that may be more vulnerable in society suffer. With years of deliberate prejudice, disadvantaged minorities were expected to reach a the same level of success, with most the routes that would enable them to, shut off. Anyway, there a numerous examples of who people have done well for themselves.

All this talk of increased crime amongst minorities is just due to economic disadvantages. But also remember, that it is obvious that blacks get accused more readily,tend to get a stiffer sentence and may be more likely to face prison In America, the majority of people of men on death row convicted of murder are black, event though they are not in the majority of convicted murderers.

[DanteXavier]

Originally Posted by twingo1

This will be my last post,

To tired to stay and defend yourself?

How dishonorable.

To answer DanteXavier, I am familiar with these stats. I am very familiar with the Caribbean countries.

No, you aren't.

You see, if you werer, you probably wouldn't have made such a stupid generalization like this: "Look at any black run country and you'll see-none of them are successful!"

The entire caribbean is doing well save for haiti. And all of those nations are run by blacks(except maybe Cuba). This, combined with your statements, leads me to believe that you actually aren't familiar at all.

These are wikipedia figures

You really don't know anything, do you?

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/

They come from the UN, wikipedia just listed them.

How ignorant can you be? Here you are, yacking on about this, and yet you don't even actually know what you're talking about.

and while they are based on a tourism and service industry economy none have managed to make the leap from 1975 like countries in Asia!

WTF are you talking about? They're all developed nations, on par with asia in terms of living standards. I proved that already with the HDI.

You don't have an argument.

The stats for South Africa include the majority black population so of course it would be at similar levels to Jamaica.

yeah, because if we only included white Saffies, SA would be a first world nation. The only problem is that they accomplished that by making sure that black saffies stayed in the dumps.

Last but not least I am extremely familiar with Logan's study. And while I take his research seriously, the link still baffles me as to how come they can not influence their own societies to be a better one?

Most of the caribbean nations are first world(in the "high" category on the HDI). Even a couple of those that aren't(like St. Lucia and Dominica) manage to rank very close to it.

That isn't enough for you, though, is it?

I was mistaken about the US African population, do me a favour compare the 13-14% with the black prison population won't you. I'll even give you a non wikipedia link

That link mentions the black incarceration rate.

It doesn't give us the black prison population.

The facts are black prison populations are many many times higher than their representation to population.

Again we blame wealthy nations, foreign debt, war in Iraq etc etc for my ills. What I have constantly said is "it is time to take responsibility for one's own actions. Haiti and others must start looking inward rather than blaming everyone.

Sure they must. i never contended otherwise.

What I am contending are your daft generalizations of blacks and of black societies in general. Haiti has its problems, but you go as far as to say "look at any black society, anywhere and you'll see-every black society is bad!".

As a Jamaican, I find that personally insulting.

I am aware of the HDI figures I have seen them many times before.

No, you haven't.

If you had, and if you'd paid attention, you wouldn't have made so many stupid remarks.

These horrid nations who you don't think are so bad are reviewed over and over in the photos in this forum.

....WTF?

Have you seen the photos of the nations I'm talking about?

Why don't you just head over to SSC Africa, view the namibia, botswana, etc, etc photo threads, and then get back to me when you learn something.

I am merely tired of the poor me syndrome synonymous with black societies.

Yeah, sure.

I am tired of the belief that the only reason the west is successful is because it was built on the backs of poor souls and the west would be nowhere with out slavery or pillage!

Not all successful western nations were even built on slavery(look at Norway and Sweden), so such a statement couldn't be completely true anyhow.

Timbuktu, Mali and Ghana kingdoms SOLD their OWN people to the Europeans. Just like many are sold out today.

Timbuktu wasn't a kingdom-it was a city within the Kingdom of Ghana, and later the Kingdom of Mali.
And yes they traded slaves, but not primarily to the Europeans. The slaves went mostly to the arabs in a form of indentured servitude.

The ignorance of history you show is mind boggling.

I am tired of people who have all the opportunity in countries like the US or Australia or France not bothering to get their hands dirty and work. Like the Italians, Jews, Indians and Asians who have all had very tough histories but risen to the top.

Yeah...again ignoring the black immigrants.

I don't think you care about them. You just don't like blacks all that much.

Where are the black Jerry Yang's or Sergey Brin's?

Oprah? Robert Johnson? Richard Parsons? Kenneth Chennault? E. Stanley O'Neal? Tokyo Sexwale?

Do you study before you speak?

These guys have barely been in the US yet look at the IT contribution. Where are the blacks in nobel prizes (excluding peace),

Wole Soyinka, 1986 Literature Prize
Derek Walcott, 1992 Literature Prize
Toni Morrison, 1993 Literature Prize
Sir William Arthur Lewis, 1979 Economics Prize

finance,

The CEO of one of the world's largest financial service companies is black.

http://www.ml.com/index.asp?id=7695_8134_8302_13747

economics,

Sir William Lewis won a nobel prize for it back in 1979.

medicine,

Charles E. Drew developed improved methods for blood storage during World War 2(1942). His work was critical to the war effort.

http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-r-drew

The science and practice of blood transfusion had developed from early work including preserving whole blood in refrigerated storage in World War I (see Oswald Hope Robertson) and the practice of having hospital “blood banks” (see Bernard Fantus) in the mid-1930s. Drew focused his own work[1] on the challenge of separating and storing blood components, particularly blood plasma, as this might extend storage periods. Dr. Drew earned his Doctor of Medical Science degree from Columbia University in 1940, with a doctoral thesis under the title Banked Blood: A Study in Blood Preservation.

And read this to: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...50/ai_17128540

entrepreneurship,

Described above-there are a number of black CEOs.

Yes there may be an individual here or there but the % compared to their population is small.

Prove it.

As mentioned I don't want to upset people, so this will be my last post on this topic.

Coward.

I just want to bring people's attention that it is YOUR, not anyone else not any nation to solve your problems! The US can't solve New Orleans mess, Haiti and the rest of the black world has little hope if it wants a bail out! The easiest way to fix your problems is to fix them yourselves!

isn't New orleans kind of part of the US? How is the US not responsible for fixing the hurricane damge, then?

[hornnieguy]

I lived in an upper middle class neighborhood in Los Angles where about 35% were African American (mostly doctors, judges and business people). I was so impressed at the quality of their families, their sense of style, and how well they kept their homes.

It was their education and values that made this people not their skin color.

[kenyan24]

Thanx dantexavier, im sure youve shut him up. Its sad that at this time and age people still have that kind of mentality.

[PresidentBjork]

Good job getting all the facts Dantexavier to negate all that drivel.

[Vanman]

I would also like to thank you as well Dantexavier. You are very artculate and know your facts. Being half Hatian I was greatly offended by some of the comments made on this thread. I think Twingo needs to travel the world before he makes such gross generalisations about any race. Canada for one is a very integrated, multicultural nation that for the most part respects all cultures equally.(Our Governor General (representative to the queen) is Hatian.) I can't speak for Montreal or Toronto but if you visited Vancouver you would see very few to no black homeless people, despite the fact that there has been wave after wave of African refugees and immigrants (mainly from Sudan)in recent years. It may take a few years to get used to a new society but if it is open and welcoming enough Africans as well as any other race will and do succeed.

[streetscapeer]

I must also commend Dante. As a Haitian-American, I too was offended by his ultra-polarized generalizations.

Originally Posted by PresidentBjork

All this talk of increased crime amongst minorities is just due to economic disadvantages. But also remember, that it is obvious that blacks get accused more readily,tend to get a stiffer sentence and may be more likely to face prison

Exactly! And not only that:

http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publ...3/pagerajs.pdf

In 2001, Devah Pager carried out a compelling study of employers responding to an applicant pool if 350 white and black young men, some with and without prison records. He reported that white men with identical work experience and education, but had been convicted of a crime were half as likely (17 percent) to receive a call back as those without a criminal record (34 percent). Among, black men the figures were 5 percent and 14 percent respectively.


So, with education and work experience being equal, a black man WITHOUT a criminal record is still LESS LIKELY to get a call back than a white man WITH a record...in THIS century.

Many sociology studies have confirmed that simply "looking inward" is not enough.

[prolixity]

Originally Posted by hornnieguy

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

Are you kidding? The USA did do something to Haiti. The pictures you see are the result.

[twingo1]

Vanman,

I think Twingo needs to travel the world before he makes such gross generalisations about any race

I am only in my early 20's yet I was born in South Africa I have been to:

South Africa
Zimbabwe
Angola
Namibia
Kenya
Egypt

England
Germany
France
Italy
Israel
Jordan
Turkey

Most of the states is the US including the south! and Hawaii
Jamaica
Bahamas
Bermuda
Costa Rica
Virgin Islands
Trinidad & Tobago

Most of Asia
Thailand
Vietnam
Indonesia
Singapore
HK
Malaysia
Most of the Pacific e.g New Caledonia and Vanuata and Fiji

Majority of Australia

The world doesn't lie, experiencing it 1st hand has given me a fair idea.

[Aztec Eagle]

Originally Posted by hornnieguy

I lived in an upper middle class neighborhood in Los Angles where about 35% were African American (mostly doctors, judges and business people). I was so impressed at the quality of their families, their sense of style, and how well they kept their homes.

It was their education and values that made this people not their skin color.

Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.

I also belive is the way your raised and educated is what really make a difrence in the life of an individual and there impact on society and NOT race.

In Twingo´s defense he is just out speaking hes point of view and he remained respectfull thru all hes comments with all of us.

Im not saying that you should like what hes point of view is or agree with him.

Remember that Twingo is also a result of hes education and the way he was raised, in a hostil eviroment partly attributed to the legacy of the apartheid and racist separatist state that was South Africa,and that esence of racist belives is still carried there.

Hes also a victim,just like Blacks are of there poor eviroments.

The same happend to young Germans part of the Hitler youth wich some of them were raised to belive in certain racist ideas and propaganda that were so impregnated in there brain that they could never shake it off.

Another recent example of this took place in the United States of America, most Americans that there parents or them lived in a society before the Civil Right Movement wich excluded blacks,Asians and Mexicans most of them have that negative feeling or distrust of these races,and this just took place a few decades ago in the case of Germany it was in the 1940´s and in the U.S. late 1960´s and South Africa the most recent case in 1994.

Lets talk about this issue with a opend mind,is healthy to discuss it in a respectfull and constructive manner.

Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi.



Shot at 2007-07-19
"Petty apartheid": sign on Durban beach in English, Afrikaans and Zulu (1989)

Segregation, United States.

Shot at 2007-07-20


Shot at 2007-07-19

[DanteXavier]

Thanks for all the commendations, guys, your kind words are appreciated.

Originally Posted by twingo1

The world doesn't lie, experiencing it 1st hand has given me a fair idea.

You went to a place like Vietnam, and then went to a place like the Bahamas and bermuda and concluded that somehow Vietnam was no problem but those two were?

That statement leads me to doubt your claim...that, or you did go and you just didn't pay a lot of attention.

Not to insult the vietnamese, i respect them...but their country is not lightyears ahead of most of the caribbean like you would foolishly have us believe. According to the HDI, Jamaica has a higher standard of living, much less the Bahamas or Bermuda.

Oh yeah, and since you've decided to show up, respond to my post I addressed to you earlier. You could at least attempt to defend yourself.

[Occit]

Originally Posted by Aztec Eagle

Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.
Segregation, United States.

Shot at 2007-07-20

...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand

[DanteXavier]

Originally Posted by Occit

...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand

The fools who made up that legislation didn't take those facts into account.

[twingo1]

DanteXavier again I am making a generalisation. Which I have been trying to make since my first post!

So instead of swearing (in regards to multiple uses of WTF), calling me names and insulting my intelligence. Let me once again say!

AS A GENERAL STATEMENT!

There are high achievers in every society yet inevitably I don't see the numbers in black societies as a % of population. Ask yourself how many people can name black achievements in sports/entertainment as opposed to the topics I listed before?

If I asked for a sports list you would give me much more names, why can't you give me dozens of names in industry? A few names here or there I won't debate it is the society as a whole.

You ask me to prove it.
do basic searches and you will see that with millions upon millions of black societies the numbers of pathetically small for overall achievement in our modern society. Why is that?

But even if you want to counter this by blaming the salve trade. Ask yourself this:

Name ancient inventions by China?
rudder, compass, gunpowder etc etc
Name ancient inventions by any African country?
?

Timbuktu wasn't a kingdom-it was a city within the Kingdom of Ghana, and later the Kingdom of Mali.
And yes they traded slaves, but not primarily to the Europeans. The slaves went mostly to the arabs in a form of indentured servitude.

The ignorance of history you show is mind boggling.

hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_Trade

You went to a place like Vietnam, and then went to a place like the Bahamas and bermuda and concluded that somehow Vietnam was no problem but those two were?

That statement leads me to doubt your claim...that, or you did go and you just didn't pay a lot of attention.

Not to insult the vietnamese, i respect them...but their country is not lightyears ahead of most of the caribbean like you would foolishly have us believe. According to the HDI, Jamaica has a higher standard of living, much less the Bahamas or Bermuda.

I did not for one second hear any Vietnamese cry POOR ME about a war that was only a few years ago. Even prolixity feel the US owes Haiti something.

Black societies are still playing the blame game over slavery and what the west has done to them hundreds of years later. YOU (society) weep and cry poor me, look what other's have done. Well our younger generation have had it in chunks! I feel that rather than moving on our kids will be having the same argument. The only thing is in 20 yrs vietnam will have gotten on with business and the HDI will leave comparitive societies in the dust, while haiti and the like will still be blaming others!

a final point to ponder, if these societies are doing so well and thriving so nicely, WHY do we need to cancel debt? Why is bono carrying on and on? Why did we not need to bail out the philipines or thailand? yet will have to bail out others?

That's it I am done!

[twingo1]

www.smh.com.au/.../2007/06/21/1182019286794.html

Read this from only a couple of weeks ago!

I am just about to finish a Masters Degree. Our government has thrown tonnes of money to help. Black societies have almost all services free. They can do medicine on much much lower marks than my contemporaries yet as a society they fall further and further behind. People are tired of societies not progressing when given all the opportunity to go forward. My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.

[Vanman]

^ You are entitled to your own opinion but basically what you are saying over and over again in different words is that Africans and blacks are inferior. Like I said before if that does not constitute racism I don't know what does. You are in denial.