Your Sheffield Transport Solutions

[paulmat]

The crossing at the Brook Hill end of that little stretch of Hanover Way will be getting even busier in the near future once the new uni building is complete. As I say, if the only crossing was down by west street, you'd have numerous students risking their luck at crossing the ring road at the top.


IMO the best thing would be to stick the road in a tunnel. Just think:

a) we would gain a load of space (this could have a second, less major road running on it, or be come parkland or development sites),
b) we could re-link London Road and Ecclesall Road to the centre, creating a better flowing pedestrian route and easier access into the centre for cars/trams/whatever you want,
c) the road could be re-made as a two lane motorway with a hard shoulder, removing problems when there are accidents,
d) the ring road would flow so much better, especially with the graded junctions put in place plus there would be no pedestrian crossings,
e) it would remove the need for pedestrian underpasses which can be a haven for crime

I'm sure I could keep going with the list, however it's never going to happen as it would be a logistical and financial nightmare, although i'm sure the land prices from the newly created development space, and the economic benefit of having a city that runs well could outweigh the cost...

[SheffCity]

Why are we lowering the standard to that of the lowest denominator - ie. the idiot who runs across the roundabout because the crossing is 100 yards away?

We fence it off so they can't just run out (like the fencing already there but maybe nicer to look at) and that will usher them to the crossing. Those who choose to jump the fence and run out will be quickly removed from the gene pool and Darwin wins again.

It's the same as traffic lights at junctions where no lights would do. Because a few idiots can't drive and crash we all have to wait at a light.

I am fed up with being inconvenienced due to society having to cater for idiots quite frankly.

People are being dumbed down to accommodate the lowest level - the species has managed for years using common sense. If you lack it then tough.

Totally agree about a tunnel Paul, but yes, very unlikely to ever happen.

[RichJay]

If it was changed so that there was only one crossing there would be many complaints from pedestrians about being inconvenienced so the planners need to consider both sides of the argument (motorists and pedestrians). I think a good solution would be to have two crossings (three is probably a bit excessive) and then make sure that the lights are timed better to let traffic flow.

[muddycoffee]

Paulmat,
I agree that on the face of it, putting this section of ring road in a tunnel would seem to be the most desirable solution. Unfortunately, this would cost 100s of millions and require expensive maintainence, expensive traffic monitoring and therefore not really cost effective. For the same price we could probably afford to add several desirable kilometres to the supertram which would be more cost effective and benefit more people.
If you make the roads much, much better all that would happen is the bottlenecks elsewhere in the system would become much more of a problem. And nobody would get anywhere quicker anyhow.

[lewisskinner]

I agree that the crossing to the south of Glossop Road is superfluous. Especially since it is staggered, no one seems to use it anyway, preferring to simply jump to the central reservation.

I do feel that both the other crossings are necessary. Effectively, they are at opposite ends of the tram platform, and are there to allow tram passengers to get across the ring road more quickly. Whilst it seems that the second crossing in each direction is useless (as traffic is usually stopped by the first when you're waiting to cross) if these were removed, people wanting to cross the ring road would have to walk the length of the tram platform, causing problems.

Brook Hill Roundabout is awful, and needs a full redesign. there are five exits, but only 3 lanes on the roundabout, and both ring road exits and Broad Lane are downhill, so three of the major 4 exits are blind!

Maybe a tunnel from just before Brook Hill to just after Glossop Road could work. The tram tunnel is already there, and the tram itself could be moved above.

[muddycoffee]

Originally Posted by lewisskinner

Maybe a tunnel from just before Brook Hill to just after Glossop Road could work. The tram tunnel is already there, and the tram itself could be moved above.

Bloody hell fire.
My mate built that tram tunnel back in the 1990s and even then it cost something like 10 million. The alignment and routing is for a tramline. To alter it for road traffic you would have to basically remove the top of the whole roundabout and make it a construction site for 12 months plus, rebuilding it from the bottom up. The cost would be probably a whole 7 years of the local council budget for transport and traffic chaos during construction would do great harm to the local economy. The improvement would be minimal in my view.
A better solution to improve flows would be to remove a couple of junctions from the roundabout. Broad Lane and the one which goes across crookesmoor. Then the junction becomes much simpler and far more efficient. Therefore less waiting.

[arepeejee]

Why not just run cars through the tram tunnel?

[SheffCity]

Originally Posted by muddycoffee

A better solution to improve flows would be to remove a couple of junctions from the roundabout. Broad Lane and the one which goes across crookesmoor. Then the junction becomes much simpler and far more efficient. Therefore less waiting.

Where do you propse traffic coming up/down Broad Lane goes if the junction is removed?

[muddycoffee]

Originally Posted by SheffCity

Where do you prop0se traffic coming up/down Broad Lane goes if the junction is removed?

Well broad lane is short circuiting the new inner ring road isn't it. It should really just connect at one end, probably down at west bar.

[muddycoffee]

Originally Posted by arepeejee

Why not just run cars through the tram tunnel?

Because it is the wrong shape and it goes where the tram should go. Have you seen how busy that university tram stop gets?
Those people are not driving and therefore helping the roads to be much less congested.

[Bladerunner]

I'm with Sheff City on this one. We should allow cars to drive in bus lanes and bike lanes. And why not down the tram tunnel too?

[lewisskinner]

Originally Posted by muddycoffee

Bloody hell fire.
My mate built that tram tunnel back in the 1990s and even then it cost something like 10 million. The alignment and routing is for a tramline. To alter it for road traffic you would have to basically remove the top of the whole roundabout and make it a construction site for 12 months plus, rebuilding it from the bottom up. The cost would be probably a whole 7 years of the local council budget for transport and traffic chaos during construction would do great harm to the local economy. The improvement would be minimal in my view.
A better solution to improve flows would be to remove a couple of junctions from the roundabout. Broad Lane and the one which goes across crookesmoor. Then the junction becomes much simpler and far more efficient. Therefore less waiting.

Ok, point taken. But it's not as though we're all proposing workable solutions here is it?

As for the removal of junctions, I don't think you can remove Broad Lane - it's the A57! And going west, I think you've removed the wrong one. Ignoring all the work done for the S10 bus corridor, a far better option would be to keep the Crookesmoor junction in place, and remove the Western Bank junction, since this is essentially a duplicate of Glossop Road just 100-or-so yards down the ring road.

[SheffCity]

Originally Posted by muddycoffee

Well broad lane is short circuiting the new inner ring road isn't it. It should really just connect at one end, probably down at west bar.

Are you sure you don't work for the council?!!

You cannot force all traffic onto the IRR. People need other routes. What about people who use Broad Lane to get to/from work. If they wanted to get to Brookhill and you close off the junction at Broad Lane you would have to drive all the way down Broad Lane to West Bar, left onto Gibraltar Street and then onto the IRR only to come up Netherthorpe Road to get to Brookhill. A massive detour. And what will the eco-warriors think of the CO2 that will create!!

I drive on/around West Bar every day, and the congestion there and leading up Broad Lane is as bad as before the IRR. It may actually be worse. The council want everyone on the IRR, so modified the West Bar Roundabout to assist this and in the hope of getting everyone off Broad Lane. What they seem to have forgot is that anyone who works in town now practically has to use Broad Lane towards West Bar to get onto the IRR. Gridlock.

The council have it in their head that you can close everything off and people will use the IRR. Many will, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all. It's not the solution for a lot of people.

Since some routes were closed off for the IRR at the Wicker my journey home is now longer - both in time and miles. And we still have a major issue of a single accident/breakdown could potentially criple the entire IRR and people will have nowhere to go thanks to other routes being closed.

I don't know what the solution for Brookhill is. I think rationalising the pedestrian crossings will help a great deal but agree something needs doing with traffic up there - just not sure what.

I don't think Sheffield ever will have a "good" road system. It's been messed about with by too many people with no thought for the long term. There have been too many missed opportunities.

[RichJay]

Originally Posted by lewisskinner

Ok, point taken. But it's not as though we're all proposing workable solutions here is it?

As for the removal of junctions, I don't think you can remove Broad Lane - it's the A57! And going west, I think you've removed the wrong one. Ignoring all the work done for the S10 bus corridor, a far better option would be to keep the Crookesmoor junction in place, and remove the Western Bank junction, since this is essentially a duplicate of Glossop Road just 100-or-so yards down the ring road.

I don't think removing the Western Bank junction is a viable option either. It would just move the problem to the Glossop Road junction and at the moment you can't turn right off the ring road up Glossop Road.

[AndrewC]

I think we should just rebuild the entire city. It could all be rebuilt for less than a tram line and the disruption would be minimal.

[unners]

Some info for anybody who catches the 47/48, you are getting 21 brand new08 reg DD buses, the same that are on the X78 route. The first 4 have arrived at garage and are being prepaired.

If you dont catch these services, the 47/48's current 02/03 reg single decks we be moved onto another route, not sure which route yet.

[Bulldozer]

From Ecclesall road thread discussion on trams;

Proposals for more Tram routes to relieve commuter traffic off Ecclesall rd discussion.

Uni stop to Hallamshire distance ok for students not for pensioners Lewis.

Muddy; the reason to run to Dore (via Parkhead, which was were i was thinking of but could not name) is to take all the commute cars off the roads, thus relieving Ecclesall road / Abbeydale corriders of grid lock at 'peak times' rush (not) 2 hours morning and evening.

SheffCity; the problem with Abbeydale and Woodseats is same as Ecclesall rd NO SPACE on most of route to fit in thats why needs to go via alternative routes and pick up from P&R the incoming commuter traffic the Buses free to run on local roads at decent rates (speed & interval). Loop to Northern general good idea as well.

All most need a outer loop line and spokes as going into center then back out vs car round outer RR = get in car, as i bet for me to go from Meadow head via city center to Meadowhall would take about 1 hour plus, were as going in car takes 20 min going to, and 40 min or so back in the rush hour tonight.

Was any info published from the traffic monitoring that when on about 2 years ago any one in the know ?

What are the real travel to work patterns - distances in the city, do loads of people commute in and lots more commute out and large numbers cross town as lots of commercial space built now in out of town locations. As fuel cost go up people will need to cut travel to work distances, as traveling 100 mile each way a day becomes uneconomical in terms of time and fuel costs.

[muddycoffee]

Originally Posted by Bulldozer

Muddy; the reason to run to Dore (via Parkhead, which was were i was thinking of but could not name) is to take all the commute cars off the roads, thus relieving Ecclesall road / Abbeydale corriders of grid lock at 'peak times' rush (not) 2 hours morning and evening.

I agree that would be a great aspiration for the city. But unless you price the well heeled people of Dore, Bents Green, Beuchief and Parkhead out of their cars with a congestion charge, there will be a very dissapointing takeup. they just will not use it.
Also these areas are less dense so you weill get fewer passengers per square foot than from districts which are mainly terraced housing and apartments and maisonettes.

One of the biggest problems with the supertram is that thanks to Clive Betts, we have the fanciest and most expensive tram system that we could have. This means that any extension would be excruciatingly expensive. And if any extension actually ever happens will probably minimal. This is why they are talking about a cheapo tram-bus to go between sheffield and rotherham, it is probably 60 times cheaper than doing the route in supertam.

I would go further to say that we will not get any tram extensions unless we actually get an elected Mayor with powers over transport like London. and you can see how unlikely that would be. we would need a completely different central government, and a totally different political atmosphere. Or a sheffield that had expanded to something like 2 million people.

The whole of my life 38 years, I have taken a passing interest in local public transport, and apart from when they built the supertram, all I have seen is the whole system slowly shrinking. when I was a child busses ran 24 hours and during the day the main routes were every 3 to 5 mins. When I started going to nightclubs 20+ years ago there was always a night bus after midnight and after 2am to take you home.
Now I wait for a bus at woodseats, one of the busiest centres, in the evening at a weekend to go for a drink in town and there is often no bus for 45 minutes. They are so expensive that if there are 4 people waiting it is cheaper to flag a taxi.

[jozblade]

I agree with Muddy. I couldn't see many people from Dore etc. using the tram over their Range Rovers etc.

[Bulldozer]

I generally find the Range Rover a bit of a tight fit in most parking bays, so get the chaufer to drop me off or take the Porsche instead.