daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 11th, 2010, 10:36 AM   #2141
Bandit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 435
Likes (Received): 6

The Japanese can make a killing selling high-speed trains to the US. They have no brakes and keep accelerating until it crashes. Then the US will have to always buy replacements.
Bandit no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 11th, 2010, 11:05 AM   #2142
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

I see the patriots are stirring again. Of course the fact that Russia sold more advanced fighter planes to India than to China - regardless what Russia is trying to do now - has nothing to do Russia's grudge against China. Of course there has been no protest whatsoever from the Russian side over J11b. Of course if the Japanese are going to sell anything to America, there must be an evil plan behind it that only befits the devilish Japanese who didn't care to sell their best railway technology to China....

When are you guys going to have a break?

(by the way, that was sarcasm)

Last edited by Ariel74; March 11th, 2010 at 05:04 PM.
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #2143
gincan
Gincan
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 888
Likes (Received): 186

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
wrong, wrong, wrong. All misinformation. You don't know anything about military trade between Russia and China. You just heard smt from God knows where and writing here like it has any substance. Which aircraft is Russia not selling to China? Come on, write here some specific ones.

China bought many fighters, bombers, missiles and always had build their clones. Russia has been OK every time because the Chinese market was profitable at the end. There was nothing illegal.

Mig-21 ==> J-7
Su-27 ==> J-11
Tu-16 ==> H-6

These are examples just come into my mind. There are countless examples.

But, now, due to economical hence technological development China have undergone she simply does not need to purchase weapons from Russia. This is the reason why we dont see any big purchases in last 5-6 years. Even right now, China is buying AL-31 and RD-33 jet engines from Russia. So, show me the so called embargo you are talking about.


Chinese trains in Europe.... This is again nothing to do with copyright. Show me single official document stating this. Siemens is selling both trains and technology period. China can use it however she wants. They paid billions for it. Also, as far as I know China already selling their rolling stocks to everywhere not only Europe.


You want to blame someone about copyright, look at big shiny companies like apple. How many law suits does apple have about copyright?
Either have you been living under a rock or you live in china and simply lack transparent newsfeed.

About the illegal atempt to export russian fighterjet technology

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2829

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/...-fighter_jet-0

And about the EU blocking chinese train maufactueres

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10614008.htm

Quote:
The European Union has repeatedly blocked Chinese firms from its market. Hungary once stroke a deal with a Chinese firm, but the European Union refused to approve it, the officials said.

Last edited by gincan; March 11th, 2010 at 04:06 PM.
gincan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 03:12 PM   #2144
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Responses in RED below

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
First off, I wouldn't use a public source of cia to read up geopolitical implications if I were you. As for the purpose of tieing up and intergrating economy with the neighbouring stanland, you don't need to build up a posh line to do so, since their economies have been already depending on CHina even without the line as you just proved.

The CIA just provide the facts, but you should make your own judgement of how each country interacts with its neighbours from an economic/political/military/cultural point of view. I see the HSR lines to be more of a political statement between the participants, which they have yet to sign up to.


Secondly, I haven't completely denied the potential economic benefits of the project which actually seem to be the only consideration project planner put on the table so far. I was arguing that the potential risks would outweight the benefits. Tan China could afford to build a Silk Road for east-west trade since its per cap income was the highest in the world; while with low per cap income, China today should not squander hard-earned cash on this opulent showpiece when social security and medicare for the mass need investments much more urgently at this stage. In fact, before thinking about external consolidation, one should think first on more inter-provinces consolidation within China herself for the time being.

Once the current railway construction surge in China is completed by 2012/2013, there will be a lot of idle capacity. Should this be left unused? Remember that these foreign investments will be funded separately

On the invasion of China, of course no one would do so or could succeed now and today. Not doable doesn't mean it's impossible ( WWI, WWII were not that ancient history).

Actually, WW1 and WW2 demonstrated that large continental nations are impossible to fully conquer.

More importantly, the global geopolitical chess is NOT about pure invasion per see, particularly betwwen the 2 superpowers USA and China, but control and/or having ability to disrupt, sabotage at minimum costs - just think in terms of the US control of East China Sea 1st/2nd island chains; the US current attempt to control Yemen using Al Qaeda as an excuse to control China's oil shipping sea route bottleneck ... Did the US threaten invasion of CHina by doing so? Of course NO, but CHina feels euqally threatened as if it were an "invasion" since indeed China has been effectively "controlled"/: managed" in this way.

But that is the point of the enhanced trade/economic links. At the moment, almost all of China's trade is sea-based and is vulnerable to foreign navies. The US currently has overwhelming military force and has the power to cut off all seaborne trade anyway. Yemen doesn't come into the equation.

Building land-based transport links lessens this vulnerability because the only parties involved are the countries with the railway line.



Building a posh rail line passing through stanland in light of the almost de facto US control of current Afgan and Iraq is nothing less than giving the US another convenient way to distupt/sabotage at minimum costs at the doorstep of its millitary bases. It is an imprudent and risky move given the current limited info we have on teh project- this is what I was arguing for.

As you say yourself, there is very little information available now. How can you be opposed when there are no details on the costs/benefits, and the world can look very different in 5-10years time.

As for Japan's case, even though it's an island country, shipping thru the short line betwwen a port of Russia to Northern Japan, then building a high speed railway passing thru either China, or Russia Far East - Outer Mogolia ( taking advantage of existing trans-siberia railline), towards theMiddle East and the EU, is not a fairytale idea given Japan's total dependence on energy , export and Malacca straits. Yet it hasn't done so, not even a proposal at any time in recent history. Isn't it weird?
Japan has previously been happy with the US Navy guaranteeing the energy and trade links that she depends on, which doesn't cost anything except subservience to US interests. They also has an "island" mentality and did not want a potential invasion route for the USSR to be opened.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 07:38 PM   #2145
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
And about the EU blocking chinese train maufactueres

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10614008.htm
I hope you realize that the article you are quoting is the chinese complaining in their official newspaper, as part of their riposte against the French accusation of having their market closed to the Europeans. Surely no one wants to reply to such accusation by saying: you are right, our market is closed to you; by the way, we have been selling well in your market. So I wouldn't take the chinese' assertion in this context too seriously - especially in view of the fact that they did win some European contract(s) recently - let alone exaggerating that possibly disingenuous claim with such eye-catching phrases as "chinese firms blacklisted by EU".
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 08:14 PM   #2146
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

The current CRH series highspeed trains in China are joint ventures with the firms that have designed them, who had made full technology transfers to their Chinese counter-parts. The modification made to the CRH-2 variant trains are made with Chinese owned (purchased from its original designer) technology.

Further, the same companies that sold trains to China are still running over each other to sell more advanced trains to China. Infact, the latest generation of HSRs by Bombardier was designed with China in mind. So whatever the concerns for Japanese/German/Canadian technologies are, apparently the Japanese/German/Canadian companies don't share them with you.

As for the yaps that are coming from the ones who are currently not successful in China, sour grapes anyone?

Alstom didn't refuse to sell trains to China because they have already done so in the form of the CRH-5. The only reason why Alstom hasn't won any orders for their 380km/h class trains is due to the poor performance of the CRH-5, which experienced many serious design flaws that had to be fixed on site post service introduction (including but not limited to a computer control system not designed to accommodate continuous long distance travel).

The Russians didn’t want to stop selling weapons to China as they were aggressively marketing their SU-30MKK2 , SU-32/34 and SU-33 fighter aircrafts to the Chinese Air Force, all of which carry some of the most advanced technologies currently manufactured by Russia and all of which more advanced than prior purchases made by the Chinese. It’s the Chinese who are not buying them.

Now that all is settled, get back onto topic.
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #2147
quashlo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,835
Likes (Received): 3215

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
So no, it will not look bad on Kawasaki, because we are talking about CRH2, trains built with the same core technologies as E2-1000 series, but not identical with them.
If the president of Kawasaki felt it necessary to personally make a visit to the Ministry of Railways, then it seems clear that there is an issue and that the they are worried that the general public, including prospective buyers of Shinkansen technology elsewhere outside of China, will perceive an accident by CRH2 trains as a deficiency in Shinkansen technology (in addition to poor management or whatever direct cause on the Chinese side).

Just because you might know there is a (relatively minor) distinction between E2-1000 and CRH2 units does not mean that the general public recognizes that difference.
quashlo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 08:35 PM   #2148
quashlo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,835
Likes (Received): 3215

Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
Further, the same companies that sold trains to China are still running over each other to sell more advanced trains to China. Infact, the latest generation of HSRs by Bombardier was designed with China in mind. So whatever the concerns for Japanese/German/Canadian technologies are, apparently the Japanese/German/Canadian companies don't share them with you.
Did you read my first post or the article on JR Central posted by Restless, or did you just conveniently glance over both?
quashlo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #2149
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Either have you been living under a rock or you live in china and simply lack transparent newsfeed.

About the illegal atempt to export russian fighterjet technology

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2829

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/...-fighter_jet-0

And about the EU blocking chinese train maufactueres

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10614008.htm


An Indian source for Pakistan fighters' news... I might say this is ignorant but I am not saying

Wait, what are these pictures ??







I think the are Chinese jets powered with Russian engine flying in Pakistan Air Force colors... But hey, it is just my eyes..

Also, What does this link saying?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6548471.stm

England buying Chinese trains?? or what?
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 08:53 PM   #2150
[email protected]
Registered User
 
Panda@Play's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
In europe chinese train manufacturers are blacklisted by the european union and are basically unable to enter the market with their products.
...................................................

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Didn't China win a contract to supply England with moderately high-speed rolling stocks not too long ago? One of us is imagining things

It shows again your deep-to-the-bone slave mentality towards your white master England, where, FYI, most of English patriots have never admitted or sinuated, and none of them will, in any way using an underlying example, not in an open public forum like this particularly, that England belongs to the EU at any point in history as you just did.

Hindustan imagination such as yours however, is quite otherworldly renowned though since you mentioned it, especially accompanied by an usual bastard version of sarcastic touch, mixed with an unbearably stong wave of sour curry and jealousy towards any China/Chinese achievements presented in the forum, whenever you write, well, you try to write, "english"(quote), while deliberately sneering at, well, you try to sneer, other non- native English speakers - the same as yourself You know what is the plain vanilla sarcasm bordering on laughing stock? that is!

Last edited by [email protected]; March 11th, 2010 at 09:55 PM.
Panda@Play no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 09:14 PM   #2151
[email protected]
Registered User
 
Panda@Play's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I see the patriots are stirring again. Of course the fact that Russia sold more advanced fighter planes to India than to China - regardless what Russia is trying to do now - has nothing to do Russia's grudge against China. Of course there has been no protest whatsoever from the Russian side over J11b. Of course if the Japanese are going to sell anything to America, there must be an evil plan behind it that only befits the devilish Japanese who didn't care to sell their best railway technology to China....
"it has nothing to do Russia's grudge against China..."(quote)

Then of course it has nothing to do with Russia's grudge against China, as both being the the founding members of SCO, a geopolitical/ millitary superpower, of which Indian PM constantly licks the boots and pays attribute to at flip of fingers of Hu Jintao.

China has its own 5th gen fighters coming, so does Russia. Only a country like India, who depends more than 70% of its major weaponaries on imports and lacks R&D capacities so severely (due to genetic reasons?) that it even can not successfully copy a basic version of modern rifle, has a motivation to have a grudge against China and Chinese' achievements amongst its deluded Hindu nationalists like you. Thank you btw for proving this point day in and day out in almost every post of yours!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
(by the way, that was sarcasm)
I just mentioned the typical bastard version of sarcasm for purpose of identifying certain types of curry mentality in my last post. Here we go, Hindustan "sarcasm" again? pleeeeeeese.

Last edited by [email protected]; March 11th, 2010 at 09:59 PM.
Panda@Play no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #2152
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I hope you realize that the article you are quoting is the chinese complaining in their official newspaper, as part of their riposte against the French accusation of having their market closed to the Europeans. Surely no one wants to reply to such accusation by saying: you are right, our market is closed to you; by the way, we have been selling well in your market. So I wouldn't take the chinese' assertion in this context too seriously - especially in view of the fact that they did win some European contract(s) recently - let alone exaggerating that possibly disingenuous claim with such eye-catching phrases as "chinese firms blacklisted by EU".
It is an open secret that SNCF always buys trains from Alstom, whilst Deutsche Bahn always picks trains from Siemens or Bombardier (formerly Adtranz of Germany).

By that measure, Chinese trains have absolutely no chance in either France or Germany.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 11:31 PM   #2153
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
If the president of Kawasaki felt it necessary to personally make a visit to the Ministry of Railways, then it seems clear that there is an issue and that the they are worried that the general public, including prospective buyers of Shinkansen technology elsewhere outside of China, will perceive an accident by CRH2 trains as a deficiency in Shinkansen technology (in addition to poor management or whatever direct cause on the Chinese side).

Just because you might know there is a (relatively minor) distinction between E2-1000 and CRH2 units does not mean that the general public recognizes that difference.
I am not sure the general public will be more aware of president of Kawasaki's trip to the CMR than it will be aware of CRH2's successive modifications. More importantly, those who are likely to know about president of Kawasaki's trip will likely be enough of railway fans not to think that various generations of CRH2 are part of the E2-1000 series. Bottom line, that little episode has more to do with perceived possibilities of legal liabilities than with publicity.

Last edited by Ariel74; March 11th, 2010 at 11:56 PM.
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 11:33 PM   #2154
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
It is an open secret that SNCF always buys trains from Alstom, whilst Deutsche Bahn always picks trains from Siemens or Bombardier (formerly Adtranz of Germany).

By that measure, Chinese trains have absolutely no chance in either France or Germany.
Why do you quote my post if what you are going to write has absolutely nothing to do with the point of my post? Certainly you are not suggesting that favoring their own is the same as putting everyone else on a "blacklist", or that the EU is comprised of two countries???
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2010, 11:53 PM   #2155
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Is this forum populated by extremists only? The first thinks that china is "blacklisted" by EU, another thinks that china does nothing else but copying, a third thinks that, because I affirmed the extent to which the chinese copy and modify technologies has caused others to raise eyebrows, I am surely an indian nationalist (to put it in less colorful language than has been displayed here in the forum)....

Guess I am the mirror in which everyone else sees his/her own extremism: that is right, it is your extremism that you see in me. Take a harder look at yourselves, please, and do develop some minimal interest in facts and perhaps also a modicum of ability to think cogently. The world has a way of contravening your fancy. It's hard to get away from the warm and fuzzy feeling of thinking wishfully, just as, permit me to use a Lacanian metaphor, it was hard to detach your baby-selves from the embrace of your mothers. But you have to do it (after all, you all made the latter )
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 02:34 AM   #2156
[email protected]
Registered User
 
Panda@Play's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes (Received): 3

Either way, Chinese HSR is going to speed ahead domestically in both total length of the network and average speed realized, leaving the rest of the world in dust.


Nonetheless I have to admit that I admire my fellow Indian poster's diehard persistance as even when he started to quote, well, he tried to quote, he quoted whiteman Metaphors. Jacques Lacan must be laughing his teeth off in his grave knowing at least he's still popular among South Asians. Your mirror image fantasy () fits ideally with post-modern Herczogian mentaphor of a charming MEP - "it’s good that you are here because if the monkey goes up to the tree, it’s better seen how red that is his popo (sic) " - I do hope she is white enough for ya.
Panda@Play no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 11:24 AM   #2157
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Either way, Chinese HSR is going to speed ahead domestically in both total length of the network and average speed realized, leaving the rest of the world in dust.


Nonetheless I have to admit that I admire my fellow Indian poster's diehard persistence as even when he started to quote, well, he tried to quote, he quoted whiteman Metaphors. Jacques Lacan must be laughing his teeth off in his grave knowing at least he's still popular among South Asians. Your mirror image fantasy () fits ideally with post-modern Herczogian mentaphor of a charming MEP - "it’s good that you are here because if the monkey goes up to the tree, it’s better seen how red that is his popo (sic) " - I do hope she is white enough for ya.
The rest of the world won't be in dust. China is still playing catchup, more or less. Starting from scratch has its advantages, as no old technology is in the way. But one shouldn't get carried away. China is a large country and it still has nowhere near the high-speed rail density either Europe or Japan has, and it won't match that in the near term.

Are you trying to be entertaining again in your second paragraph? I sure hope that's not some sick insecure chinese patriot ranting. The fewer the likes of you China has, the better off it will be.

Just to let you know, the indian sub-continent is practically the only continent-sized place I have never been to, nor have a relation in. So give it a rest, whatever the reason of your agitation. And please, clean up your spelling while you clean up your language
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 12:22 PM   #2158
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Why do you quote my post if what you are going to write has absolutely nothing to do with the point of my post? Certainly you are not suggesting that favoring their own is the same as putting everyone else on a "blacklist", or that the EU is comprised of two countries???
My post is certainly relevant as country-specific protection is certainly alive and well in Europe and Asia. If you favour your own companies and ensure they're the only winners, then how is that different from a blacklist???

I referred to France and Germany as examples, because they are the 2 big train manufacturers in Europe and have an effective industrial policy in place to promote this industry. The EU is one vehicle they use to do this.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 12:37 PM   #2159
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
It is an open secret that SNCF always buys trains from Alstom, whilst Deutsche Bahn always picks trains from Siemens or Bombardier (formerly Adtranz of Germany).

By that measure, Chinese trains have absolutely no chance in either France or Germany.
It used to be that indeed the national railways of a country would favor the railway industry of a particular country. However the last couple of years things have been changing.
- Alstom isn't really that much of a French company any more. They have plants all over Europe. The same applies to Siemens and to Bombardier.
- Railways now have to put out their orders for public tender, and all manufacturers can apply. The process is supposed to be transparent, so that any company, regardless of it's nationality has a chance.

The result is that SNCF has been buying from others beside Alstom for quite a while now. SNCF has orderd quite a large number of trainsets for regional services from Bomdardier, and even some from Siemens. The freight division has locomotives from about every supplier at the moment.
You see the same in Germany, with DB buying trainsets from Alstom for example.

If a Chinese railway manufacturer comes forward with a product that matches the requirements of a European railway operator they would have a chance. However at the moment I suppose the Chinese railway industry has enough orders for the domestic market to keep it busy.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2010, 01:19 PM   #2160
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Factual corrections below in RED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
The rest of the world won't be in dust. China is still playing catchup, more or less. Starting from scratch has its advantages, as no old technology is in the way. But one shouldn't get carried away. China is a large country and it still has nowhere near the high-speed rail density either Europe or Japan has, and it won't match that in the near term.

Your assertion that China will not match the high-speed railway density of Europe in the near term is incorrect. If you look at the figures below, China will have a comparable HSR railway density in 2years time

European Union
Population: 501million
High Speed railways: Approx 5499km (2009). Approx 6000??km by 2012

China
Population: 1340million+
High Speed railways: 3000km+ (2009). Growing to 13,000km by 2012

The train requirements for a network twice the size of Europes will be huge.

For example, Siemens Velaro-based train deliveries in China are greater than all ICE and Velaro trains ever produced in the past 30years. The existing factories and development engineers cannot hope to meet this demand, so an entirely new supply chain and R&D complex is currently being built within China.

And don't forget that a similar scenario is being played out with the Bombardier Zefiro and Kawasaki Shinkansen trains, which also have heavy technology transfer requirements that the companies have agreed to. However, it doesn't look like Alstom ever reconciled itself to this situation.

So in summary:
1. We have 3 world-class high speed trains designs, which are all competing with each other in China
2. The demand for high speed trainsets in China for the next decade is greater than the rest of the world combined
3. And China Railways favours domestic content in the trains, which will drive technology localisation

Therefore my conclusion is that the centre of high speed train design and manufacturing will decisively shift to China in the next 10 years.



Are you trying to be entertaining again in your second paragraph? I sure hope that's not some sick insecure chinese patriot ranting. The fewer the likes of you China has, the better off it will be.

Just to let you know, the indian sub-continent is practically the only continent-sized place I have never been to, nor have a relation in. So give it a rest, whatever the reason of your agitation. And please, clean up your spelling while you clean up your language
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed train, rail, tgv

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium