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Old March 13th, 2010, 04:24 PM   #2181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2...t_13164969.htm

Length: 199.484 km
- Intercity Mainline: 164.577 km
- Airport Branch: 34.857 km

The line is expected to be completed in 2014.
What? Are you sure about this? What's the cost of this project? And I thought that abolished the MagLev Project?
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Old March 13th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #2182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2...t_13164969.htm

Length: 199.484 km
- Intercity Mainline: 164.577 km
- Airport Branch: 34.857 km

The line is expected to be completed in 2014.
Amazing, if true. But the phrase "深化研究" does appear to give them room for canceling the project later on after all. Any more detailed reports?
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Old March 13th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #2183
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I only believe when I see pictures of the construction site.

Acutally, it has been "approved" and "given green light" for so many times in the past only to be halted shortly after again.

Are there any other sourches who can confirm it?

Howerve, it would be just awesome, if they would build it!!!
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Old March 14th, 2010, 12:22 AM   #2184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Ad 1: I don't know what your argument here is. You seem to know that the chinese are still struggling with the key components of CRH3 (at least) and are importing these from Siemens. So in what sense have they caught up technologically?

In the sense that Chinese companies can develop and construct an entire high-speed railway, with the exception that a few key technologies are still dependent on outside sources. Of course, they'd be working to master these.

how do the European and Japanese companies maintain expertise and skills? by building trains for export and by replacing and expanding the existing HSR lines, albeit slowly. It remains to be seen how competitive chinese trains are going to be in the export market.

For a hundred years, the UK was the home of the railway, but now there is only a single train factory left in the country


Ad 2: Not true that you have to compare chinese provinces to European countries. Each provinces of china can specialize in whatever they want, the HSR density (gauged by population) is still a good basis for comparing the extent of HSR development between countries, each of which will have within itself a relatively uniform level of technological development. The difference between Poland and Germany is not due to specialization, but due to different levels of economic and technological development. The same technology will be employed both in Hubei and in Guangdong, precisely because they are parts of the same country, and that cannot be said for Poland and Germany.

The same argument applies to Hubei and Guangdong. Hubei is way behind Guangdong in terms of development. You may not be aware, but Chinese provincial governments have absolute control of all government resources in their province. Central government influence and control is pretty limited.


Ad 3: Again what's your point? I thought you are disputing my claim that the density of HSR in China will not - in the short term - match those EU countries with mature HSR technology and Japan. So my assumption is that you want to dispute both the part of my claim about Europe as well as the part of my claim about Japan.

Again, since we're both in Europe, why bother spending the time to compare against Japan?


Or are you saying that I shouldn't have made the claim involving Japan to begin with? Now enlighten me about why that is the case (especially given that Japan is the country of HSR), and why that has anything to do anyone's being European?

You are not making sense, frankly.
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Old March 14th, 2010, 01:29 AM   #2185
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This thread is a mess
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Old March 14th, 2010, 03:18 AM   #2186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Comments in RED below
You are still not making sense:


1) So they caught up, except for the key elements of technology. That is, strictly speaking not, but very close to a contradiction.

2) Don't the existing and planned HSR lines, made of similar technologies, go through most provinces, and the fact that they do is the result of planning by the central government???

3) I am going to say it again: you are disputing my claim, and my claim has two parts, one part about Europe, one part about Japan. If being in Europe is the reason for not talking about Japan - despite the fact the Japan is the gold standard of HSR - then why do we talk about Chinese HSR at all???

How parochial do you have to be, seriously?
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Old March 14th, 2010, 01:36 PM   #2187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
You are still not making sense:


1) So they caught up, except for the key elements of technology. That is, strictly speaking not, but very close to a contradiction.

2) Don't the existing and planned HSR lines, made of similar technologies, go through most provinces, and the fact that they do is the result of planning by the central government???

3) I am going to say it again: you are disputing my claim, and my claim has two parts, one part about Europe, one part about Japan. If being in Europe is the reason for not talking about Japan - despite the fact the Japan is the gold standard of HSR - then why do we talk about Chinese HSR at all???

How parochial do you have to be, seriously?
You aren't listening.

1. I said that the end outcome is equal or better to any other HS Train.
However, there are some key input technologies which are still to be developed or replicated domestically

2. The NRDC and the Central MOR draw up the overall plans based on the needs of the nation. Funding, construction and implementation are left to autonomous units at a lower level (such as Provincial Governments, Local railway bureaus and special purpose vehicles) which are then audited by national agencies.

3. Japan is the not the gold standard in terms of HSR.

The Chinese HSR lines that have opened in the past 2years are longer, faster and more modern than the few kilometres the Japanese are currently building.

Also don't forget that whilst Maglev development in Europe and Japan has stalled, Chinese companies are now pushing ahead with at least 3 different maglev designs.

Lastly, what on earth are you talking about parochialism for?
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Old March 14th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #2188
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...RrwZQD9EDOF7G0

China to bid on US high-speed rail projects
By JOE McDONALD (AP) – 20 hours ago

BEIJING — China plans to bid for contracts to build U.S. high-speed train lines and is stepping up exports of rail technology to Europe and Latin America, a government official said Saturday.
China has built 4,000 miles (6,500 kilometers) of high-speed rail for its own train system and President Barack Obama issued a pledge in November with his Chinese counterpart, Hu Jintao, to cooperate in developing the technology.
"We are organizing relevant companies to participate in bidding for U.S. high-speed railways," Wang Zhiguo, a deputy railways minister, told a news conference.
Wang gave no details of where China's railway builders might seek contracts, but systems are planned in California, Florida and Illinois. He said state-owned Chinese companies already are building high-speed lines in Turkey and Venezuela.
Beijing plans to construct a 16,000-mile (25,000-kilometer) high-speed rail network by 2020 in a 2 trillion yuan ($300 billion) project it hopes will spur economic and technology development. A new line linking the central city of Wuhan with Guangzhou near Hong Kong on China's southern coast is billed as the world's fastest at 237 miles (380 kilometers) per hour.
China produces high-speed trains using French, German and Japanese technology. Its manufacturers have developed a homegrown version but have yet to produce a commercial model.
Chinese rail authorities have signed cooperation memos with California and Russia and state companies plan to bid on a line in Brazil linking Rio de Janeiro with Sao Paulo, Wang said. He said Saudi Arabia and Poland also have expressed interest.
The White House announced $8 billion in grants in January for rail projects including the high-speed systems in California, Florida and Illinois.
"China is willing to share its mature and advanced technology with other countries to promote development of the world's high-speed railways," Wang said.
So far, China's government has completed 2,295 miles (3,676 kilometers) of rail lines with top speeds of up to 220 mph (350 kph) and 1,795 miles (2,876 kilometers) with speeds up to 155 mph (250 kph), according to Wang.
Another 6,000 miles (10,000 kilometers) of lines are under construction, he said.
Once the network is completed, it will cut travel time from Beijing to Hong Kong from 24 hours to 10.
Some critics say high-speed train fares are too high for average Chinese and question whether the lines can recover their construction costs.
Wang said high-speed trains already have higher occupancy rates than regular trains, though he gave no details.

Associated Press researcher Bonnie Cao contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
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Old March 14th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #2189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
You aren't listening.

1. I said that the end outcome is equal or better to any other HS Train.
However, there are some key input technologies which are still to be developed or replicated domestically

2. The NRDC and the Central MOR draw up the overall plans based on the needs of the nation. Funding, construction and implementation are left to autonomous units at a lower level (such as Provincial Governments, Local railway bureaus and special purpose vehicles) which are then audited by national agencies.

3. Japan is the not the gold standard in terms of HSR.

The Chinese HSR lines that have opened in the past 2years are longer, faster and more modern than the few kilometres the Japanese are currently building.

Also don't forget that whilst Maglev development in Europe and Japan has stalled, Chinese companies are now pushing ahead with at least 3 different maglev designs.

Lastly, what on earth are you talking about parochialism for?
I have to complement you, as Sacrates did his interlocutor, for making arguments that are so life-like, that, like the sculptures of Daedalus, they move around, and never stay at the same place.

Or maybe your arguments are rather like an CRH3 raging across the southern plains of china?

But you do seem to need help with English as well. If you look up "parochialism", you'd notice that your suggestion that we not talk about Japan for the reason of being in Europe has something to do with it. Remember, you may make super-fast moving arguments. The meanings of words are pretty stable, they stay where they are a long time.

Well then, I will leave you to people of your own league, logically and linguistically speaking.

Last edited by Ariel74; March 14th, 2010 at 02:55 PM.
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Old March 14th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #2190
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@ Ariel74

Are you a native speaker of English? If so, you REALLY don't want to get into an argument with a native speaker like myself who has spent all his life in the British Isles. If not, then shame on you for disparaging people like Panda Play who are using English as a completely foreign second language.

That is simply bad conduct in British eyes, and your grammar is not anything to shout about either.

Also, there is nothing parochial about missing out Japan. I didn't do Japan for the same reason that I didn't do a comparison with Germany: the rough equivalent to Japan (Population: 127million) is Guangdong province.
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Old March 14th, 2010, 09:46 PM   #2191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
@ Ariel74


Also, there is nothing parochial about missing out Japan. I didn't do Japan for the same reason that I didn't do a comparison with Germany: the rough equivalent to Japan (Population: 127million) is Guangdong province.
Compare that with your original rhetorical question a few posts back:

"3. Why bother with a comparison with Japan when you're European?"

And there you have a beautiful demonstration of the Daedalian character of your writings. No logical person can engage with such swiftness of movement in argument. So excuse me for not wasting my time with you any more.
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Old March 14th, 2010, 09:56 PM   #2192
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You probably meant this :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
@ Ariel74

Are you a native speaker of English? If not, you REALLY don't want to get into an argument with a native speaker like myself who has spent all his life in the British Isles. If so, then shame on you for disparaging people like Panda Play who are using English as a completely foreign second language.
Either way, I have met plenty of people who've "spent their entire life" on that island and who wouldn't be able to save their ass by putting together a few cogent sentences. So that's that. And if you are telling truth about yourself, I have just "met" another of these...
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Old March 14th, 2010, 11:13 PM   #2193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post

Well, that is just a bald claim. Restless and I are precisely disagreeing with aspects of it, and I don't see what are you bringing to the debate.

Restless's statistics about 2012 projections contradicts this claim (when understood in terms of density, that is), as I have just been pointing out. On which statistics are you basing your claim? To be long in absolute terms is not really leading given the size of China.

Great achievement or not, it is not germane to the discussion here. Fact is that people get carried away by this "great achievement" sentiment and begin making silly claims.

My replies are italicized and in bold.
Nothing I wrote was claim. They are facts, again, in more detailed way:

Fact 1: China is spending 300 billion dollars to build its high speed network.

Fact 2: China will have 13,000km high speed railroad by 2012. ==> longest

Fact 3: 8000km of this 13,000 is designed for speeds more than 350km/h, remaining is designed for speeds more than 250km/h. ==> fastest

Fact 4: Germany has only ~1300km high speed railway and only a fraction of this may be suitable for 350km/h. No 350km/h train is in operation. Population of Germany is ~82 million.

Fact 5: France has only 1700km high speed railway and again only a fraction may be suitable for 350km/h. No 350km/h train is in operation. Population of France is ~65 million.

Fact 6: Japan has ~2500km high speed railway. No 350km/h train is in operation. Population of Japan is ~127 million.

P.S. I would prefer if we were talking about Chinese railways not about English language.
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Old March 14th, 2010, 11:22 PM   #2194
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looks so futuristic
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Old March 14th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #2195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Nothing I wrote was claim. They are facts, again, in more detailed way:

Fact 1: China is spending 300 billion dollars to build its high speed network.

Fact 2: China will have 13,000km high speed railroad by 2012. ==> longest

Fact 3: 8000km of this 13,000 is designed for speeds more than 350km/h, remaining is designed for speeds more than 250km/h. ==> fastest

Fact 4: Germany has only ~1300km high speed railway and only a fraction of this may be suitable for 350km/h. No 350km/h train is in operation. Population of Germany is ~82 million.

Fact 5: France has only 1700km high speed railway and again only a fraction may be suitable for 350km/h. No 350km/h train is in operation. Population of France is ~65 million.

Fact 6: Japan has ~2500km high speed railway. No 350km/h train is in operation. Population of Japan is ~127 million.

P.S. I would prefer if we were talking about Chinese railways not about English language.
First of all, let's get the conceptual relation between "claims" and "facts" straight: even if your claims were true, so that they express facts, they would still be claims.

Now to your false claim, and I quote "Chinese HSR will be faster and longer. Even when you put population in calculations it will be on par to any country".

The falsity of this claim is demonstrated by your "fact 2", "fact 4", "fact 5", "fact 6".

To flash it out for you (since you seem to be too lazy to do it yourself before posting any none-sense that happens to come to your mind), china, germany, france, japan, will have the following per capita HSR in kilometers around 2012, assuming that the latter three countries will not be expanding, which is by the way false:

China: 13000km/1,3billion = (roughly) 10 km/million persons

Germany: 1300km/82million = (roughly) 15,8 km/million persons

France: 1700km/65 million = (roughly) 26 km/million persons

Japan: 2500km/127million = (roughly) 19.6 km/million persons

In other words, under the assumptions most favorable to China (that no one else is expanding and upgrading, that the projection for China's HSR construction materializes, that Germany and Japan's populations do not shrink, etc.), each of the three established HSR powers will have at least a 50% advantage over China in terms of per capita HSR, in the short term. Two of these will have roughly twice the HSR density of China.

Last edited by Ariel74; March 15th, 2010 at 12:01 AM.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 12:55 AM   #2196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
First of all, let's get the conceptual relation between "claims" and "facts" straight: even if your claims were true, so that they express facts, they would still be claims.

Now to your false claim, and I quote "Chinese HSR will be faster and longer. Even when you put population in calculations it will be on par to any country".

The falsity of this claim is demonstrated by your "fact 2", "fact 4", "fact 5", "fact 6".

To flash it out for you (since you seem to be too lazy to do it yourself before posting any none-sense that happens to come to your mind), china, germany, france, japan, will have the following per capita HSR in kilometers around 2012, assuming that the latter three countries will not be expanding, which is by the way false:

China: 13000km/1,3billion = (roughly) 10 km/million persons

Germany: 1300km/82million = (roughly) 15,8 km/million persons

France: 1700km/65 million = (roughly) 26 km/million persons

Japan: 2500km/127million = (roughly) 19.6 km/million persons

In other words, under the assumptions most favorable to China (that no one else is expanding and upgrading, that the projection for China's HSR construction materializes, that Germany and Japan's populations do not shrink, etc.), each of the three established HSR powers will have at least a 50% advantage over China in terms of per capita HSR, in the short term. Two of these will have roughly twice the HSR density of China.
good At least you didn't quote anything from my previous post as claims. That's a good progress. Now my claims or comments on these numbers,

As you calculated Chinese network will be comparable even when bluntly divided to population.

If we add speed hence the capacity to this calculations it will be on par to any other network.

You wrote about possible addition to other countries' networks. Those possible additions you are talking about, please post some figures here so we learn the scale of them. Moreover, please don't forget to add a comparable figure for China for same time period. For example, do you mind sharing us the planned high speed railway length by 2020 in China? It will leave possible planned railroads from all other countries we are talking about in the dust even when we combine them.

Chinese network is brand new, faster, longer and will be carrying probably more passengers than any other network. That is why it is not difficult to guess/claim it will be the best.

We can now argue about my comments since we put the facts straight.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 01:25 AM   #2197
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good At least you didn't quote anything from my previous post as claims. That's a good progress. Now my claims or comments on these numbers,

Apparently you are still clueless about what the relation is between claims and facts. But I am not here to be your grammar tutor nor to refresh your logic, so I will let that pass.


As you calculated Chinese network will be comparable even when bluntly divided to population.

Whatever your definition of "comparable" is, I have shown that your own statistics supports my claim about china's significant lag in per capita HSR mileage in the near term. So why the wiggling? To save face?


Chinese network is brand new, faster, longer and will be carrying probably more passengers than any other network. That is why it is not difficult to guess/claim it will be the best.

We can now argue about my comments since we put the facts straight.

Unlike you and the rest of the fanatics on this site, I don't care to make grand claims about the far future. The purpose of my posts was to make the point that China is currently playing catchup with Europe and Japan in the area of HSR and that in the near term China will continue to compare poorly with these established HSR powers in terms of HSR per capita mileage. And I rest my case here.

No one is stopping you from taking great joy in China's brand new infrastructure projects. It's that that joy has tendency to issue in silly, exaggerated claims.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 01:36 AM   #2198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
The purpose of my posts was to make the point that China is currently playing catchup with Europe and Japan in the area of HSR and that in the near term China will continue to compare poorly with these established HSR powers in terms of HSR per capita mileage. And I rest my case here.
Your definition for the adverb "poorly" is ..... hmmm..... let's say "different" than how most of the people define it.

Don't worry I am enjoying a lot... Especially when I see pictures of endless elevated railways.

I hope to see the same in US. My enjoyment will be great in that case too. Because USA is the only country who might have a comparable network.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 08:44 AM   #2199
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The 1318km Beijing-Shanghai high speed line will open 2011, one year ahead of schedule.

http://www.chinadaily.cn/china/2010-...nt_9588140.htm




Last edited by Scion; March 16th, 2010 at 04:14 AM.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 01:11 PM   #2200
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..

Last edited by makita09; March 15th, 2010 at 01:17 PM.
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