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Old March 16th, 2010, 12:48 PM   #2221
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Something like that was what I was suspecting. But the current Maglev line does feel like a half-ass job. Connecting the two airports would be a fine idea. Is there a way to do that while cutting somewhat closer to Shanghai's city center?
I think the Maglev is going to connect to Shanghai South Railway Station, but I'm not 100% sure. Shanghai South station seems like quite a distance from the centre of Shanghai though, so I'm not entirely sure how useful it would be either (probably good for connecting to inter-city rail though).

But anyway, I agree with you. The Maglev seems pretty pointless, an incredibly expensive show piece. I think I've read at least 20 articles saying that the extension has been approved during my time as an SSC forumer too
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Old March 16th, 2010, 12:53 PM   #2222
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Something like that was what I was suspecting. But the current Maglev line does feel like a half-ass job. Connecting the two airports would be a fine idea. Is there a way to do that while cutting somewhat closer to Shanghai's city center?
I think the Maglev is going to connect to Shanghai South Railway Station, but I'm not 100% sure. Shanghai South station seems like quite a distance from the centre of Shanghai though, so I'm not entirely sure how useful it would be either (probably good for connecting to inter-city rail though).

But anyway, I agree with you. The Maglev seems pretty pointless, an incredibly expensive show piece. I think I've read at least 20 articles saying that the extension has been approved during my time as an SSC forumer too
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Old March 16th, 2010, 01:31 PM   #2223
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Shanghai South station isn't that far. That's only 3 subway stops from Xujiahui which is the equivalent to Oxford Circus in Central London.

Also, there are very few "local" train services as the overloaded railway network is generally reserved for long-distance trains. Plus buses are better suited to this type of transportation as they run more often and are frequently cheaper and faster.

Last edited by Restless; March 16th, 2010 at 01:45 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 05:14 PM   #2224
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Also, there are very few "local" train services as the overloaded railway network is generally reserved for long-distance trains. Plus buses are better suited to this type of transportation as they run more often and are frequently cheaper and faster.
Buses are wasteful. They run on rubber wheels and must carry their liquid fuel. The only time they make sense is when they have to run on a low density line which, for some reason, nevertheless has road or street.

An obvious move is to find any overloaded and frequent bus lines and replace these with trolleybuses.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #2225
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Shanghai South station isn't that far. That's only 3 subway stops from Xujiahui which is the equivalent to Oxford Circus in Central London.

Also, there are very few "local" train services as the overloaded railway network is generally reserved for long-distance trains. Plus buses are better suited to this type of transportation as they run more often and are frequently cheaper and faster.
No Xujiahui is more like Hammersmith, and the equivalent to Oxford Circus will still be People's Square (First Department Store). Compared to Shanghai Station (in zhabei), South Station is fairly remote.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #2226
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The MOR has been against Mag-Lev right from the beginning because it believes it's too expensive and is not compatible with the existing railway network. Of course, you could argue that there is some turf war in it too since MOR had made a lot of investments in the conventional HSR and wanted to monopolize the railway industry in China.

There had been long and heated debate in China regarding conventional HSR vs Mag-Lev throughout the '90s, with MOR in the camp of conventional HSR and some well-known academics and Ministry of Science and Technology in the Mag-Lev camp. My impression of the latter is that they fell into love with the sexy technology for the sake of technology and did not have much sense of operating a railway. The Beijing-Shanghai HSR had been postponed repeatedly due to the debate.

Unable to reach a consensus, Chinese government gave the go-ahead to the Shanghai Mag-Lev project as an experimental line. The line had shown that Mag-Lev is too expensive and China does not have enough of its own technologies to lower the cost. Plus, Germany refused to transfer more technologies. The Mag-Lev thus was abandoned as the technology of choice to build the national HSR network, a right decision, I must say.

Shanghai government is now stuck with this expensive toy. Eventually, it may connect Pudong Airport, Hongqiao Airport, and possibly Shanghai South Railway Station.


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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:15 PM   #2227
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No Xujiahui is more like Hammersmith, and the equivalent to Oxford Circus will still be People's Square (First Department Store). Compared to Shanghai Station (in zhabei), South Station is fairly remote.
You're right that Xujiahui is analogous to Hammersmith in terms of location, but I referring to role it plays as a shopping, entertainment and business centre in its own right

Last edited by Restless; March 16th, 2010 at 07:35 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:36 PM   #2228
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Typical knee-jerking reaction from you. It's not about what I prefer. It's about a sensible trade-off between highspeed and the environment. Apparently, if the chinese academics quoted in the article are right, 350km/h trains consume more than twice as much energy to operate compared with 250km/h trains. Coupled with the fact that China mostly burns coal to generate electricity, this surely gives reason for pause, especially for shorter lines like that connecting Tianjin and Beijing.

If that is a spin, it is a spin by some chinese academics. And it's in any case way better than your anti-rightist campaign style instinctive vitriol-spouting.


You didn't even answer the question. I tell you what... with your logic, probably 100km/h is even better for environment What is your reaction for 300km/h and 320km/h railways outside China? Should they decrease the speed to 250km/h???

Moreover, I can find you 100X times more academicians who support 350km/h high speed network than the academicians who are for a slower one

By the way, I will always have answers because I know high speed rail network is the best solution for passenger traffic in China. Hypocritic ideas of yours are just laughable.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:39 PM   #2229
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae804264-3...=53&SID=google

Siemens joins China bid for Saudi rail link
By Jamil Anderlini in Beijing
Published: March 16 2010 13:56 | Last updated: March 16 2010 13:56

Siemens, the German industrial giant, has dropped a bid to supply trains and equipment for the Mecca-to-Medina high-speed railway line in Saudi Arabia and has joined a Chinese consortium, in a sign of the growing competitiveness of Chinese rail manufacturers.

Siemens abandoned its own bid as part of a consortium with the Saudi Binladin Group and has joined a bid led by state-owned China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corporation for the second phase of the $7bn Haramain high-speed rail project, according to people familiar with the situation.

The German engineering group will provide signalling and electrification equipment to the Chinese consortium, which also includes China Railway Construction Corp and the Beijing Railway Administration.

The 450km railway will link Islam’s two holiest sites via the port of Jeddah and will ease congestion during the annual Hajj pilgrimage, when more than 2.5m people make the journey to Mecca.

The Chinese bid is seen as the frontrunner – China Railway Construction Corp, which is also state-owned, was part of a consortium that won a $1.8bn contract to build the first phase of the project last year.

“Siemens realised when China threw its hat in the ring, that they were unlikely to win so they decided to join them rather than let one of their competitors team up with the Chinese bidder,” said one person involved in the project.

France’s Alstom and South Korea’s Hyundai and Samsung are also bidding for the second phase of the Haramain project, according to someone close to the situation.

Siemens said it was unable to comment on the project due to the ongoing tender.

“Generally, we can say that co-operation with our Chinese partners in international projects is always an option for us,” Ansgar Brockmeyer, head of public transit at Siemens Mobility told the Financial Times.

Shafqat Rabbani, project manager for the Haramain high speed rail at the Saudi Railways Organisation, said the SRO had not been “formally informed” that Siemens was joining the Chinese consortium.

Final bids for the project are due in on May 1.

Analysts said Siemens’ decision to hitch its wagon to the Chinese bid was a sign of how competitive the Chinese rail industry has become and how state backing from Beijing helps in winning contracts abroad.

A series of bids by state-owned Chinese rail companies in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere have all been co-ordinated by China’s Railway Ministry. Two $1.8bn contracts were announced last year during a visit to the Kingdom by Chinese President Hu Jintao.

“China is now the largest producer of rolling stock and related technologies globally, and we’re seeing more and more of these Sino-foreign partnerships exploring new markets,” said Evan Auyang, an executive at Transport International and a former infrastructure consultant at McKinsey.

Additional reporting by Eliot Gao in Beijing
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:47 PM   #2230
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a04d14cc-3...44feabdc0.html

China on track to boost high-speed rail
By Jamil Anderlini in Beijing


For decades the high-speed railway sector has been dominated by a handful of companies in Europe, Japan and North America that have mostly concentrated on projects in their own regional markets.

But now, just as the industry is witnessing a proliferation of high-speed rail projects across the globe, the rapid rise of Chinese state-owned rail producers is posing a serious threat to the dominance of companies like Germany’s Siemens, France’s Alstom, Canada’s Bombardier and Japan’s Kawasaki.

“Chinese companies are changing the landscape of the global railway market because of the dimensions of their home market and because they are becoming involved in international tenders, which is new,” according to Dominique Pouliquen, Asia-Pacific managing director for Alstom.

In a sign of how competitive the Chinese state railway equipment producers now are, Siemens has abandoned its own bid for the second phase of the “pilgrim express” linking the holy cities of Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia and joined a Chinese consortium instead.

While the Chinese companies are new to the global stage and lag their European rivals in terms of quality and technology they have some significant advantages.

“Price is their number one competitive advantage and they are very well organized with financing support from Chinese state-owned banks,” Mr Pouliquen told the Financial Times. “They offer a global package which is usually combining technical solution with financing so it is very easy for governments to make a decision to use their products.”

The Chinese Ministry of Railways, which directly owns many of the country’s rail companies, co-ordinates tenders so Chinese companies don’t bid against each other and also encourages foreign companies to join Chinese consortiums by holding out the prospect of greater access to the enormous Chinese market.

Analysts say Chinese companies are already very active in bidding for projects in Middle Eastern countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran as well as Latin American countries like Argentina, Brazil and Mexico.

They are also targeting a number of projects in Australia and the US and have already made significant inroads in their own region with contracts in Thailand and Hong Kong.

The rise of the Chinese rail industry with its global aspirations has happened virtually overnight.

Iain Carmichael, managing director Lloyd’s Register Rail in Asia, says that as recently as three years ago Chinese companies didn’t have the knowhow for many parts of their own rail systems, such as signaling and high-speed technology, and that provided a huge opportunity for European companies.
“But as the Chinese gained the know-how, the relationship changed so now the Chinese have the upper hand and the Europeans now have to work co-operatively if they want to compete,” Mr Carmichael said.

“Rolling stock products are built cheaper in China than anywhere else and the quality is now at the level where they can sell to global projects.”
He says the main constraint on Chinese exports of rolling stock is capacity, as Chinese producers are trying to keep up with orders at home in what is now the largest market in the world.

“Some big manufacturers are tripling their output this year and we’re seeing a vast expansion of metro systems as well as high speed rail,” Mr Carmichael said.

China’s market for rail equipment, including trains, components and equipment like signaling systems, is expected to quintuple from an average of $10bn a year in the period between 2004 and 2008 to more than $50bn a year between 2009 and 2013, according to estimates from McKinsey and Co.

This year, China is expected to account for more than half of the total global expenditure on rail equipment.

The government plans to build at least 30,000km of new railway, most of it high speed, over the next five years and China is expected to soon overtake Russia to have the second-largest rail infrastructure in the world after the US.

These ambitious expansion plans have been on the books for years but in the wake of the financial crisis, the government accelerated its planned build-out to help boost growth, moving the target date for completion for many projects up from 2020 to 2015.

The size and scale of the Chinese market partly explains why European and international rail equipment providers are scrambling over each other to partner with the Chinese state producers inside the country and around the world.

But co-operation has come at a price.

“European manufacturers have complained that they have transferred technology to China as required [by Beijing] and now the Chinese are using their technology to compete on price in the international market and even in the European home markets,” said Evan Auyang, an executive at Hong Kong-based Transport International and a former infrastructure consultant at McKinsey.

Chinese regulations for the sector include onerous local content requirements stipulating that 70-90 per cent of rail equipment must be Chinese-made and the official state policy on using foreign rail technology is known as “introduce, digest, absorb then innovate”.

“Around 90 per cent of the technology the Chinese currently are using is derived from their partnerships or equipment developed by foreign companies,” Mr Pouliquen said.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #2231
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You didn't even answer the question. I tell you what... with your logic, probably 100km/h is even better for environment What is your reaction for 300km/h and 320km/h railways outside China? Should they decrease the speed to 250km/h???

Moreover, I can find you 100X times more academicians who support 350km/h high speed network than the academicians who are for a slower one

By the way, I will always have answers because I know high speed rail network is the best solution for passenger traffic in China. Hypocritic ideas of yours are just laughable.
Are you on the same rabidity inducing drugs as Panda is? I posted a news article, summarized its content, without making a claim of my own about the optimal speed-energy-saving trade-off.

If you have a problem with the news, try to find the people mentioned in it, or write your own opinion and get it published somewhere. Stop barking like a dog any time you read something less than euphoric about chinese HSR.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 08:14 PM   #2232
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Originally Posted by Restless View Post
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae804264-3...=53&SID=google

Siemens joins China bid for Saudi rail link
By Jamil Anderlini in Beijing
Published: March 16 2010 13:56 | Last updated: March 16 2010 13:56

Siemens, the German industrial giant, has dropped a bid to supply trains and equipment for the Mecca-to-Medina high-speed railway line in Saudi Arabia and has joined a Chinese consortium, in a sign of the growing competitiveness of Chinese rail manufacturers.

Siemens abandoned its own bid as part of a consortium with the Saudi Binladin Group and has joined a bid led by state-owned China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corporation for the second phase of the $7bn Haramain high-speed rail project, according to people familiar with the situation.

The German engineering group will provide signalling and electrification equipment to the Chinese consortium, which also includes China Railway Construction Corp and the Beijing Railway Administration.

The 450km railway will link Islam’s two holiest sites via the port of Jeddah and will ease congestion during the annual Hajj pilgrimage, when more than 2.5m people make the journey to Mecca.

The Chinese bid is seen as the frontrunner – China Railway Construction Corp, which is also state-owned, was part of a consortium that won a $1.8bn contract to build the first phase of the project last year.

“Siemens realised when China threw its hat in the ring, that they were unlikely to win so they decided to join them rather than let one of their competitors team up with the Chinese bidder,” said one person involved in the project.

France’s Alstom and South Korea’s Hyundai and Samsung are also bidding for the second phase of the Haramain project, according to someone close to the situation.

Siemens said it was unable to comment on the project due to the ongoing tender.

“Generally, we can say that co-operation with our Chinese partners in international projects is always an option for us,” Ansgar Brockmeyer, head of public transit at Siemens Mobility told the Financial Times.

Shafqat Rabbani, project manager for the Haramain high speed rail at the Saudi Railways Organisation, said the SRO had not been “formally informed” that Siemens was joining the Chinese consortium.

Final bids for the project are due in on May 1.

Analysts said Siemens’ decision to hitch its wagon to the Chinese bid was a sign of how competitive the Chinese rail industry has become and how state backing from Beijing helps in winning contracts abroad.

A series of bids by state-owned Chinese rail companies in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere have all been co-ordinated by China’s Railway Ministry. Two $1.8bn contracts were announced last year during a visit to the Kingdom by Chinese President Hu Jintao.

“China is now the largest producer of rolling stock and related technologies globally, and we’re seeing more and more of these Sino-foreign partnerships exploring new markets,” said Evan Auyang, an executive at Transport International and a former infrastructure consultant at McKinsey.

Additional reporting by Eliot Gao in Beijing
This is interesting news. I wonder what the dynamics really is behind the bidding. As is well known, China still imports some key components from Siemens (among which are axle and wheels) for their production of CRH3 rolling stocks. Now it seems to me:

1) If the chinese just offered the Saudis CRH3, then it is not clear at all that Siemens, as a competitor, would be obligated to deliver the chinese the key components they still cannot manufacture;

2) On the other hand, if the chinese offered the Saudis CRH2, which as far as I know is almost completely indigenized as well as brought up to speed speedwise with Siemens' Velaro, china would have a considerable cost advantage (among other things perhaps) over Siemens.

So what I imagine could have happened is that:

a) Chinese first threatened to offer CRH2 to the Saudis, in which case Siemens is likely to lose their bid to China and to have nothing at all from the deal;

b) so Siemens agreed to be part of a chinese bid, offering the Saudis CRH3, in which case Siemens at least gets to sell the key components that china still cannot make to satisfaction, which altogether amount by all account to about 15% of the total cost.

Is that a likely explanation of Siemens' action?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 08:31 PM   #2233
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Buses are wasteful. They run on rubber wheels and must carry their liquid fuel. The only time they make sense is when they have to run on a low density line which, for some reason, nevertheless has road or street.

An obvious move is to find any overloaded and frequent bus lines and replace these with trolleybuses.
Who said anything about how the buses are powered?

They're dirt cheap compared to most other transport methods, and they're perfect for running low-density routes.

Remember that there are always lots of areas which do not create enough passenger traffic to justify anything more.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 08:52 PM   #2234
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Who said anything about how the buses are powered?
If you count "trolleybus" as a "bus", then how about streetcars? They have steel wheel on steel rail, so are probably not buses, and have less rolling friction.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 09:08 PM   #2235
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If you count "trolleybus" as a "bus", then how about streetcars? They have steel wheel on steel rail, so are probably not buses, and have less rolling friction.
I think they make sense when you have higher passenger volumes that justify the additional investment.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:21 PM   #2236
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You're right that Xujiahui is analogous to Hammersmith in terms of location, but I referring to role it plays as a shopping, entertainment and business centre in its own right
In the same way Hammersmith is also a commercial centre is its own right. In terms of importance in relation to the whole city Xujiahui and Hammersmith are on par with each other. I'm sure a Gunnersbury Railway Terminus, very close to Hammersmith wouldn't be considered 'well connected'.

Also bus links to Shanghai South is poor - most of the services actually go out into the sticks. The only route that goes into the central area is the 236, and that's a peak-only service.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 12:05 AM   #2237
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Are you on the same rabidity inducing drugs as Panda is? I posted a news article, summarized its content, without making a claim of my own about the optimal speed-energy-saving trade-off.

If you have a problem with the news, try to find the people mentioned in it, or write your own opinion and get it published somewhere. Stop barking like a dog any time you read something less than euphoric about chinese HSR.
Straight personal attacks and again no answers.

Plus hiding behind quoted article like he didn't say anything. Wow...

I know why you are not answering tough. You have no problem with other high speed railroads but when it comes to China you suddenly remember energy and environment
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Old March 17th, 2010, 12:33 AM   #2238
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The MOR has been against Mag-Lev right from the beginning because it believes it's too expensive and is not compatible with the existing railway network. Of course, you could argue that there is some turf war in it too since MOR had made a lot of investments in the conventional HSR and wanted to monopolize the railway industry in China.

There had been long and heated debate in China regarding conventional HSR vs Mag-Lev throughout the '90s, with MOR in the camp of conventional HSR and some well-known academics and Ministry of Science and Technology in the Mag-Lev camp. My impression of the latter is that they fell into love with the sexy technology for the sake of technology and did not have much sense of operating a railway. The Beijing-Shanghai HSR had been postponed repeatedly due to the debate.

Unable to reach a consensus, Chinese government gave the go-ahead to the Shanghai Mag-Lev project as an experimental line. The line had shown that Mag-Lev is too expensive and China does not have enough of its own technologies to lower the cost. Plus, Germany refused to transfer more technologies. The Mag-Lev thus was abandoned as the technology of choice to build the national HSR network, a right decision, I must say.

Shanghai government is now stuck with this expensive toy. Eventually, it may connect Pudong Airport, Hongqiao Airport, and possibly Shanghai South Railway Station.
I see. Do you know anything about the state of indigenization of the Maglev technology used in Shanghai? There is very little discussion of it on the internet, compared with CRH2 and CRH3. One reason this is relevant is that, from what I read, radiation and noise pollution are not as serious a problem as they have been publicized, the chief argument against it being cost. But if China succeeds to completely indigenize the technology, the costs might be significantly reduced, thereby making a maglev line from Beijing to Guangzhou, for example, an extremely interesting possibility (imagine 4-5 hours from Beijing to Guangzhou!)
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Old March 17th, 2010, 12:50 AM   #2239
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there has been an very interesting article posted on how Siemens, one of the world's leading railway equippment producer, has teamed up with one of its customers to provide a product to another potential large customer.

And all that people will choose to do is to continue in their endless flame....
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Old March 17th, 2010, 01:13 AM   #2240
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there has been an very interesting article posted on how Siemens, one of the world's leading railway equippment producer, has teamed up with one of its customers to provide a product to another potential large customer.
What's your take on that, then? Think the scenario I sketched above is likely?
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